Starbucks

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kalden yungdrung
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Starbucks

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:28 pm

Tashi delek,

Sometimes, i take a cappuccino at Starbucks.

Today i saw there something remarkable.
Starbucks is consciousness about the waste of plastic and foam cups. :applause:

Their alternative is that we consumers have to pay for their alternatives !
Its a shame, they have to invest money to guarantee the consumer more friendly cups.....
Here we can see the low standard mentality of the multi nationals , they really see only money , win and loss, controlled at their watch tower of power, the stock exchange market screens.



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Starbuck - 00.jpg
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Translated:
Tue etwas für die Umwelt - Do something for the environment / the world around us.
The best meditation is no meditation

emaho
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Re: Starbucks

Post by emaho » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:29 pm

Hmmm... not the biggest fan of Starbucks' policies either, but in this case I don't really see the point. Are other cafés giving away reusable cups for free? I think 2,50€ is a fair price, especially since you get a discount of 30 Cents for yout beverage if you bring your own reusable cup, that means you reach the ROI after 8,3 coffees. Also, you can drink your coffee or tea while you're still at Starbucks, in which case you get a reusable cup anyway. I don't see anything wrong here :shrug:
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Starbucks

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:43 pm

emaho wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:29 pm
Hmmm... not the biggest fan of Starbucks' corporate policies either, but in this case I don't really see the point. Are other cafés giving away reusable cups for free? I think 2,50€ is a fair price, especially since you get a discount of 30 Cents for yout beverage if you bring your own reusable cup, that means you reach the ROI after 8,3 coffees. Also, you can drink your coffee or tea while you're still at Starbucks, in which case you get a reusable cup anyway. I don't see anything wrong here :shrug:
Like told before, Starbuck must finish with their plastic / foam politics not the consumer.
To take away coffee etc. should be given only when people take their cup / thermo bottle from home to Starbucks.
That drops the price of coffee.
So their alternative is still not good enough IMO

Also supermarkets should finish their short term plastic bags, and not let people pay for their solutions which still has shortcomings.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Queequeg
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Re: Starbucks

Post by Queequeg » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:34 pm

This mentality is a huge part of what's wrong.

Starbucks is the multinational corporation that it is because you degenerates :tongue: need your caffeine fix. The containers you BUY your coffee in are filling landfills and the tops are floating in the oceans for the next 100 years. The company offers for sale a reusable cup so that your purchases won't contribute to the environmental problems further, and then you complain that its not free.

Here's a suggestion: go down to the discount store, buy an unbranded, generic travel mug for half the price, and bring that to Starbucks or whatever cafe, and ask them to put the coffee in your mug. They will do it. You'll even get a few cents off at Starbucks.

Everyone needs to pull. Take a look at your habits and think of how you can make an impact. Wanting corporations to do everything because in your mind you've judged them as bad actors is just lazy and ignorant.

Holy shit. This epitomizes the gimme gimme gimme culture masquerading as woke.

PS. Sorry, KY, for being so harsh. No personal disrespect.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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jake
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Re: Starbucks

Post by jake » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:05 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:34 pm
This mentality is a huge part of what's wrong....

...The containers you BUY your coffee in are filling landfills and the tops are floating in the oceans for the next 100 years. The company offers for sale a reusable cup so that your purchases won't contribute to the environmental problems further, and then you complain that its not free....

Wanting corporations to do everything because in your mind you've judged them as bad actors is just lazy and ignorant.
I agree, all need to take action but KY and others raise an incredibly important issue, case in point: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... campaigns/
I’ve never known anyone who was objectively pro-litter. Litter’s awful. It’s disgusting. We’re all agreed. But it seems that the nationwide anti-litter campaign, which began in the 1950s, was a bit less pure in its origins. According to Heather Rogers’ Gone Tomorrow: The Hidden Life of Garbage, the entire anti-litter movement was initiated by a consortium of industry groups who wanted to divert the nation’s attention away from even more radical legislation to control the amount of waste these companies were putting out. It’s a good story worth retelling."
The key message of the article:
"In 1953, the packaging industry—led by American Can Company and Owens-Illinois Glass Company, inventors of the one-way can and bottle, respectively—joined up with other industry leaders, including Coca-Cola and the Dixie Cup Company to form Keep America Beautiful (KAB), which still exists today. KAB was well-funded and started a massive media campaign to rail against bad environmental habits on the part of individuals rather than businesses. And that meant cracking down on litter. Within the first few years, KAB had statewide antilitter campaigns planned or running in thirty-two states.

In essence, Keep America Beautiful managed to shift the entire debate about America’s garbage problem. No longer was the focus on regulating production—for instance, requring can and bottle makers to use refillable containers, which are vastly less profitable"
These issues are incredibly complicated and not easy to solve at all. I've a number of books on related topics and one I recently enjoyed and recommend (though pricey so Inter-library loan it!) is "Sustainable Consumption and the Good Life" https://www.routledge.com/Sustainable- ... 1138013001.

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Queequeg
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Re: Starbucks

Post by Queequeg » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:15 pm

Nothing has ever stopped anyone from bringing their own reusable cups to Starbucks. I actually was a barrista way back and we always welcomed the hippies with their own cups and offered ceramic mugs if people were staying.

Give me convenience or give me death. Consumers could have been insisting on this all along, and some were.

How many ad campaigns by corporations fail?

The bottom line is consumers take the path of least resistance, sure, enabled by their corporate suppliers. If it's not corporations tricking us into bad behavior, it's overbearing government's telling us what to do. Someone else is always the bad guy, not us.

People just suck. I hope we stop sucking.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Starbucks

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:10 pm

Starbucks is corporate fast food combined with very well marketed caffeine addiction. Their coffee is so freaking strong, and IMO not particularly good. They've always been big on the show of social/environmental justice thing, from the very beginning. They are a terrible company IMO, for instance with terrible labor policies.

I disagree about it being consumer's fault. Generally in the days of sophisticated marketing in particular, demand is pretty much manufactured. There weren't billions of people clamoring for half calf bullshit macchiatos or whatever before them, even here in the PNW where all that stuff originated US-wise. Are there social forces outside of Starbucks that helped them be successful? Sure, it was the prefect social moment to get more people addicted to super sugary, caffeinated drinks, and they did it. So sure, individuals should do something different, but when you have corporations whose whole business model is making a buck off of people's worst tendencies...you get what you'd expect. Fast food (again, what Starbucks is, really) just operates in a milder version of how Tobacco companies etc. operated before they were under any real scrutiny.

Throwaway culture didn't originate with consumer demand, that demand was manufactured by corporations, starting at least the 50's.

Still, it's great that they have the cups I suppose.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Starbucks

Post by Caoimhghín » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:26 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:10 pm
Throwaway culture didn't originate with consumer demand, that demand was manufactured by corporations, starting at least the 50's.
I remember a history teacher telling a class I was in about how built-in obsolescence is a post-depression, possibly postwar, feature of manufactured goods, but I heard that so long ago I can't be sure if I remember it right.

IIRC, the quality of pre-1930's goods ("they just didn't break" being the narrative) was such that they rarely needed to be replaced and companies essentially ran out of people to sell ovens (etc.) to. The teacher linked the newer inferior-quality goods with a new stage of industry in America, one where there was simply more buying, out of necessity.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Starbucks

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:29 pm

Caoimhghín wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:26 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:10 pm
Throwaway culture didn't originate with consumer demand, that demand was manufactured by corporations, starting at least the 50's.
I remember a history teacher telling a class I was in about how built-in obsolescence is a post-depression, possibly postwar, feature of manufactured goods, but I heard that so long ago I can't be sure if I remember it right.

IIRC, the quality of pre-1930's goods ("they just didn't break" being the narrative) was such that they rarely needed to be replaced and companies essentially ran out of people to sell ovens (etc.) to. The teacher linked the newer inferior-quality goods with a new stage of industry in America, one where there was simply more buying, out of necessity.
Advertising changed from this time on as well, with a heavy and cynical dose of psychology being employed. Basically, advertising began to tell people not simply about the quality of the product, but about how they lacked something in their life without it.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

emaho
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Re: Starbucks

Post by emaho » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:27 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:34 pm
...you degenerates :tongue:
:lol:

for the record, I have never ever had one single coffe-to-go (or tea-to-go or whatever) in my entire life, I drink my tea in the house from a re-usable ceramic cup :tongue:

As for banning single use cups, sure, that would be the right thing to do, but that's a political problem. As long as other companies are still offering coffe-to-go in throwaway cups, every company will have to fear a huge loss of sales if they stop offering them first. It has to be banned by the government, other than that it won't happen.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

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justsit
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Re: Starbucks

Post by justsit » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:56 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:29 pm
Caoimhghín wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:26 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:10 pm
Throwaway culture didn't originate with consumer demand, that demand was manufactured by corporations, starting at least the 50's.
I remember a history teacher telling a class I was in about how built-in obsolescence is a post-depression, possibly postwar, feature of manufactured goods, but I heard that so long ago I can't be sure if I remember it right.

IIRC, the quality of pre-1930's goods ("they just didn't break" being the narrative) was such that they rarely needed to be replaced and companies essentially ran out of people to sell ovens (etc.) to. The teacher linked the newer inferior-quality goods with a new stage of industry in America, one where there was simply more buying, out of necessity.
Advertising changed from this time on as well, with a heavy and cynical dose of psychology being employed. Basically, advertising began to tell people not simply about the quality of the product, but about how they lacked something in their life without it.
Yes, around the same time we began to be called "consumers" instead of "customers."

IMO most people are basically lazy and greedy (no surprise there, and no judgment implied); they're willing to be green if it doesn't require effort and is cheap. If you make it easier and cheaper for a person to chose the green alternative, they're way more likely to do so. My state is about to enact a prohibition on plastic shopping bags for certain stores, and gee, suddenly some people actually remember to bring their own bags. Amazing.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Starbucks

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:57 pm

justsit wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:56 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:29 pm
Caoimhghín wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:26 pm
I remember a history teacher telling a class I was in about how built-in obsolescence is a post-depression, possibly postwar, feature of manufactured goods, but I heard that so long ago I can't be sure if I remember it right.

IIRC, the quality of pre-1930's goods ("they just didn't break" being the narrative) was such that they rarely needed to be replaced and companies essentially ran out of people to sell ovens (etc.) to. The teacher linked the newer inferior-quality goods with a new stage of industry in America, one where there was simply more buying, out of necessity.
Advertising changed from this time on as well, with a heavy and cynical dose of psychology being employed. Basically, advertising began to tell people not simply about the quality of the product, but about how they lacked something in their life without it.
Yes, around the same time we began to be called "consumers" instead of "customers."

IMO most people are basically lazy and greedy (no surprise there, and no judgment implied); they're willing to be green if it doesn't require effort and is cheap. If you make it easier and cheaper for a person to chose the green alternative, they're way more likely to do so. My state is about to enact a prohibition on plastic shopping bags for certain stores, and gee, suddenly some people actually remember to bring their own bags. Amazing.
Yeah we have had that for a while, it actually works. It has some annoying consequences, but it's a positive change for sure.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Starbucks

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:58 pm

emaho wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:27 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:34 pm
...you degenerates :tongue:
:lol:

for the record, I have never ever had one single coffe-to-go (or tea-to-go or whatever) in my entire life, I drink my tea in the house from a re-usable ceramic cup :tongue:

As for banning single use cups, sure, that would be the right thing to do, but that's a political problem. As long as other companies are still offering coffe-to-go in throwaway cups, every company will have to fear a huge loss of sales if they stop offering them first. It has to be banned by the government, other than that it won't happen.
Tashi delek E,

I also never take a take away cup when i go to Starbucks etc.
Also i insist inside on a ceramic cup and not a foam cup.

You are absolutely right that the government has here the duty to forbid single used plastics, foam cups etc.

An example:

Buy sometimes fresh pressed orange juice in a supermarket.
They have a machine for that and plastic bottles
Ask if i could take with me next time my 1 litre glass bottle from home.
They refused that alternative because there was missing the bar code on my bottle :thinking:

Here we see deep rooted customs which they do not change so 123 and so it is also with other alternatives.
Single iused plastic bags do not weight much and can be weighted in that way.
If i would take with me my ceramic bowl of 100 gram to put the stuff inside then the supermarket worker cannot weight it.

It shows the whole system has to be changed , cleaned up.
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emaho
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Re: Starbucks

Post by emaho » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:36 pm

A bit off-topic, but I just came across this video published today by the BBC on the Sikkimese village of Lachung, where they have banned all single use plastic stuff:
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Starbucks

Post by Caoimhghín » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:45 pm

There's some sort of ban to that effect going down in Canada too in a bit. A&W and, I think, a few other chains trying to cash in on appearing eco-friendly, have switched to cardboard straws already. They work, but you can't put the straw in before you plan on drinking; they only last so long in the liquid before becoming unfunctional.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Starbucks

Post by Caoimhghín » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:46 pm

On a side note, is that a proper usage of a semicolon?
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Starbucks

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:51 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:58 pm
You are absolutely right that the government has here the duty to forbid single used plastics, foam cups etc.
What should the penalty be for possession of these forbidden items?
If a person has several of them do they get charged with trafficking?

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Queequeg
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Re: Starbucks

Post by Queequeg » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:53 pm

emaho wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:27 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:34 pm
...you degenerates :tongue:
:lol:

for the record, I have never ever had one single coffe-to-go (or tea-to-go or whatever) in my entire life, I drink my tea in the house from a re-usable ceramic cup :tongue:

As for banning single use cups, sure, that would be the right thing to do, but that's a political problem. As long as other companies are still offering coffe-to-go in throwaway cups, every company will have to fear a huge loss of sales if they stop offering them first. It has to be banned by the government, other than that it won't happen.
I typed that with a cup of coffee in a disposable paper cup on my desk, so, I was speaking of myself as much as anyone else... I do feel shame...

Obama instituted some higher fuel efficiency standards and Trump is trying to roll them back. California has resisted Trump's roll back, making state standards that follow or exceed the Obama standards. They can do this because their economy is so big that manufacturers have to consider them, even if other jurisdictions allow lower efficiency. This has set up a state's rights / Federal preemption showdown.

The thing is, automakers don't want the roll backs. The writing is on the wall and even car execs realize we are screwed if we don't mitigate carbon emissions. Some have committed to voluntarily maintain the California standards. They want the standards because it puts all manufacturers on the same competitive footing.

The dispute between California and the EPA is just stupid.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Starbucks

Post by Queequeg » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:58 pm

Caoimhghín wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:46 pm
On a side note, is that a proper usage of a semicolon?
Yes. :smile:

I've often lapsed into using elipsis ... when I really ought to be using a semicolon.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Queequeg
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Re: Starbucks

Post by Queequeg » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:05 pm

Caoimhghín wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:45 pm
There's some sort of ban to that effect going down in Canada too in a bit. A&W and, I think, a few other chains trying to cash in on appearing eco-friendly, have switched to cardboard straws already. They work, but you can't put the straw in before you plan on drinking; they only last so long in the liquid before becoming unfunctional.
Should we really be throwing shade when a company actually tries to be better?

Whole Foods can be critiqued or even condemned for their business and labor practices, and don't even get started on their parent company...

They give a 50 cent discount for each reusable bag you use. If you wanted to game it, you could pack the bags light and make out a little bit. Its a nice incentive. I'm not expecting them to be anything but what they are, but little things like that go a long way. They probably make up for it by charging more for other stuff. That said, their organic milk and eggs are ridiculously cheap. I don't know how they do it. Probably squeezing some hormone free cow until their udders bleed.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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