Post Truth World

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by Caoimhghín » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:56 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:57 am
of course ‘supernatural’ is taboo in the secular west.
Obviously, it is. Why else would we speak of "supernormal" powers?

They're not supernatural. They're just supernormal. We're normal. Buddhists are normal. Nothing to see here.
:rolleye: :spy: :sage:
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

ShantiPeace
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by ShantiPeace » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:49 pm

So what is normal? Same as common?

I think it's interesting. Normal would include what is uncommon, perhaps.

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by Caoimhghín » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:30 pm

ShantiPeace wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:49 pm
So what is normal? Same as common?

I think it's interesting. Normal would include what is uncommon, perhaps.
If it's uncommon, is it normal? I think they are functional synonyms myself.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

ShantiPeace
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by ShantiPeace » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:19 pm

Abnormal cannot be equatws with uncommon, and this is the difference. Abnormal implies something else than simply not common. So there is a difference.

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by Caoimhghín » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:56 pm

ShantiPeace wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:19 pm
Abnormal cannot be equatws with uncommon, and this is the difference. Abnormal implies something else than simply not common. So there is a difference.
What does it imply to you? It might be a denotation/connotation matter between different people.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

ShantiPeace
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by ShantiPeace » Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:55 pm

Abnormal does not imply the same thing as uncommon.

Average, standard, can be thrown in with normal and common, as sometimes synonyms, but also have their own unique meaning.

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by Caoimhghín » Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:35 pm

I guess you have to explain it to me then, if it please you, because I don't get it.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

Sādhaka
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by Sādhaka » Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:47 pm

There is normal, and then there’s ordinary.

They’re not necessarily the same thing.

A example going back to my previous post:

Monsanto-sprayed “food” is ordinary these days, yet is certainly not normal.

DharmaN00b
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by DharmaN00b » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:57 am

It would appear you're approaching the :quoteunquote: event horizon of English words.

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by Caoimhghín » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:00 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:47 pm
Monsanto-sprayed “food” is ordinary these days, yet is certainly not normal.
I think this is a connotation/denotation issue. How I use these words, Monsanto-sprayed food would necessarily be normal if it is ordinary. What does "normal" mean to you as opposed to "ordinary" as opposed to "common?"
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

narhwal90
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by narhwal90 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:16 am

Dictionary lists normal and ordinary as generally synonymous in adjective form. Thus the monsanto sprayed food is normal and ordinary in these times.

noun forms are different.

similarly abnormal and uncommon are themselves listed as synonymous in adjective form.

smcj
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by smcj » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:50 am

narhwal90 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:16 am
Dictionary lists normal and ordinary as generally synonymous in adjective form. Thus the monsanto sprayed food is normal and ordinary in these times.

noun forms are different.

similarly abnormal and uncommon are themselves listed as synonymous in adjective form.
Synonyms are not necessarily fungible.

(I like the word fungible. So seeing a chance to use it, I did.)
https://soundcloud.com/user-730689343/chenrezig-puja
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

DharmaN00b
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by DharmaN00b » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:19 pm

Yes, words are customary in everyday conversation but problematic when using teleological language in a biological context (The merits of crop spraying).

If we were speaking of, let's say, blind selective pressures and genetic mutations we could be tempted to push meaning and purpose to one side.

Now apply the human hand and some of us become wary. Good by design does not seem to come easy for the people. Trust seems to be way more common when events are tampered by the invisible hand (Deus ex machina).

:focus:

ShantiPeace
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by ShantiPeace » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:24 pm

Common and normal are close but not the same.

Abnormal implies a lot more than saying something is not common.

Sadhaka added ordinary which was very nice.... Extraordinary is above -- is and usually does not imply anything except positive.

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Dan74
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by Dan74 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:37 pm

Replying to the OP...

There is a clear backlash against technology and its progenitors - science, rationality, the Age of Enlightenment. Perhaps the backlash is not even against technology per se, but the worldview it underpins - a mechanistic, logical, cold, clockwork universe that has no plan for us, and doesn't care if we live or die. People desperately want to believe in something, if not Jesus and angels, then the reptilians, some giant conspiracy or one of the newfangled religions. Just live, consume and die is a driving so many of us to depression and suicide.

There are Buddhist teachings that, as fas as I understand, suggest that this world isn't solid, but mind-made, collective-karma-made and everything is up for grabs, meaning the physical laws that govern it are themselves karmic and don't necessarily hold under all circumstances. Miracles are possible.

A few months ago I was astounded to read an article in a Swiss premium daily of their Africa correspondent's encounter with magic. He was apprenticed to a witch-doctor in Ivory Coast and then Mali and describes some supernatural experiences that followed. https://www.nzz.ch/feuilleton/wer-magie ... ld.1512404 I guess no respectable English-speaking daily would print something like that, but the continentals retain a certain fondness for magic.

I would be careful to distinguish facts and logical reasoning grounded in facts applied where they belongs from an absolutist mentality which asserts that what we know is all there is. As a teacher, I think it is really import that kids learn to reason, to research carefully and critically examine the sources and to carefully craft rational evidence-based arguments. That said, I think it is also vital that they not lose the curiosity, the sense of wonder and care about the world, including not only the environment, but also themselves.

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by Caoimhghín » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:41 pm

ShantiPeace wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:24 pm
Common and normal are close but not the same.

Abnormal implies a lot more than saying something is not common.

Sadhaka added ordinary which was very nice.... Extraordinary is above -- is and usually does not imply anything except positive.
I still don't get it, but I don't need to get it either.

So we can just chill knowing that you think "something" different is meant by abnormal that isn't meant by uncommon or not ordinary, and I can chill knowing that some people think something unspecified about these words that I will never know. And the world will go on.

:anjali:
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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Queequeg
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:59 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:37 pm
There is a clear backlash against technology and its progenitors - science, rationality, the Age of Enlightenment. Perhaps the backlash is not even against technology per se, but the worldview it underpins - a mechanistic, logical, cold, clockwork universe that has no plan for us, and doesn't care if we live or die. People desperately want to believe in something, if not Jesus and angels, then the reptilians, some giant conspiracy or one of the newfangled religions. Just live, consume and die is a driving so many of us to depression and suicide.
Hey Dan. I've often ascribed the tendency toward conspiracy thinking as the need to believe that SOMEONE is in charge, even if that someone's interests are malevolent. It can't possibly be the case that we are hurtling through space with no safety net! I think its rebelling against the same materialist logic you identify. Its all related. Not to get sidetracked into inter-religious discussion, but I've always understood the "personal relationship with Jesus" to ameliorate that existential worry that there really is no plan, that we really are just on our own, an accident of the universe.
There are Buddhist teachings that, as fas as I understand, suggest that this world isn't solid, but mind-made, collective-karma-made and everything is up for grabs, meaning the physical laws that govern it are themselves karmic and don't necessarily hold under all circumstances. Miracles are possible.
Indeed.
I would be careful to distinguish facts and logical reasoning grounded in facts applied where they belongs from an absolutist mentality which asserts that what we know is all there is. As a teacher, I think it is really import that kids learn to reason, to research carefully and critically examine the sources and to carefully craft rational evidence-based arguments. That said, I think it is also vital that they not lose the curiosity, the sense of wonder and care about the world, including not only the environment, but also themselves.
I quoted the Canki Sutta above. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=32387#p511530

The Buddha goes on to explain what he means by the "Safeguarding of Truth". In a nutshell, he explains, safeguarding the truth means, whatever we tentatively believe to be the truth, we don't preclude anything else, including having our presently received notions completely overturned. One refrains from the position, "Only this is true; everything else is false."

That said, there have to be limits to that disposition of openness. I can't insist that there is an elephant waiting for me outside to give me a ride to the train station. No matter how much I believe that, its simply, and verifiably, false, least of which because, I just made it up.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

ShantiPeace
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by ShantiPeace » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:39 pm

Caoimhghín wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:41 pm
ShantiPeace wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:24 pm
Common and normal are close but not the same.

Abnormal implies a lot more than saying something is not common.

Sadhaka added ordinary which was very nice.... Extraordinary is above -- is and usually does not imply anything except positive.
I still don't get it, but I don't need to get it either.

So we can just chill knowing that you think "something" different is meant by abnormal that isn't meant by uncommon or not ordinary, and I can chill knowing that some people think something unspecified about these words that I will never know. And the world will go on.

:anjali:
You're welcome?

I answered, and you say, "we can just chill."

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Queequeg
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Re: Post Truth World

Post by Queequeg » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:44 pm

ShantiPeace wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:39 pm
Caoimhghín wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:41 pm
ShantiPeace wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:24 pm
Common and normal are close but not the same.

Abnormal implies a lot more than saying something is not common.

Sadhaka added ordinary which was very nice.... Extraordinary is above -- is and usually does not imply anything except positive.
I still don't get it, but I don't need to get it either.

So we can just chill knowing that you think "something" different is meant by abnormal that isn't meant by uncommon or not ordinary, and I can chill knowing that some people think something unspecified about these words that I will never know. And the world will go on.

:anjali:
You're welcome?

I answered, and you say, "we can just chill."
Yeah, this is a nuance of colloquial English. I don't think he means it in the passive aggressive sense of leaving off a dispute, but rather, to just let it abide. Like, you know, "The Dude abides."

Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

ShantiPeace
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Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:57 am

Re: Post Truth World

Post by ShantiPeace » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:55 pm

Heh, I'm not upset or anything, but adding in that part of "you think", but "I know" tends to set the tone a bit. I picked up on that previously.

There's a lot of subtleties to language. And while they seem inconsequential, they can actually have huge effects in the world.

When someone says "that's not normal," it's quite different from if they say, "I've never seen that before.... Very unusual."

Unusual, and or uncommon, don't have the same connotations as "not normal."

Anyway, Dan's good is very good because it helps my expressing my point.

Magic or miracles, such as perhaps what Buddhist consider siddhis, are rare but not non-existent. They are not common, but they are not outside of what occurs.

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