Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:17 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:00 pm
I was not really criticising you, and perhaps should have been clearer. What Greta (and XR, and many other persons/movements) is doing is invaluable, and it is great that the papers talk about her and praise her -- a good opportunity to press the issue. That said, what we need is a political movement, with both long and short term political aims -- feasible aims, moreover. XR has so far generally failed short here, which is perfectly understandable: while political actors involved are well-known, we know no legitimate means of effectively forcing them into action. There is some enthusiasm and energy building up, which is good news. Now if only we knew how to transform it into a political movement...
Don't worry, I just noticed that I was not clear in my wording. :D

Political action definitely has to be taken. The "solution" will not come from us regulars recycling and not turning our lights on. That being said, populations should gather in public spaces and manifest their desire for something to be done. The culprits should be clearly signed. And public and private sectors should work together. However, I doubt that will happen.

If demonstrations are held, the "other side" will always spin it to make them look like "hippies" or kids.

There is already a plenty of political parties, however nobody votes for the green parties. Well I do, but they always lose. The message of global warming is too much for some and therefore it will not be as widely supported as right-wing ideas.
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:49 pm

Könchok Thrinley wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:17 pm
If demonstrations are held, the "other side" will always spin it to make them look like "hippies" or kids.
As long as the demonstrations pose no real threat to the status quo. If they ever do they will send the tanks.

I would not put very much trust in parties. Parliamentary democracy is not only merely dead but really, most sincerely dead.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche

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Nemo
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Nemo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:14 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:02 pm
Nemo wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:32 pm
You collectively chose to do nothing.
Frankly, that is a massive overvaluation of human agency.

Nothing has been done, that much is tragically obvious, and, worse still, nothing continues to be done, pretty much. But there has been very little, and still is, one can choose to do -- and the field is narrower still when the subject is plural, especially in capitalism. Boomers grew up in capitalism and are its children (and the fact that theirs was still a relatively benign -- to those within the city walls, of course -- version of the plague makes them even less capable of seeing it as a plague), how could they be anything else?

In any case, to make even a meaningful personal choice, one has to be well-informed (well-educated, actually), aware of one's agency and its implications, endowed with enough time and space to think it through, etc -- in other words, one has to be bred to do so, and live in a culture that genuinely encourages it. The world of boomers, though arguably less removed from it than ours, still was nothing of the sort. Also, later generations are hardly much more successful when it comes to effecting any actual social change, are they?
You can, "I didn't know they were taking the Jews to death camps," all you want. I was a full time environmentalist in the 80s/90s. The ozone layer was easy to fix. Easy because it would effect them personally. Climate change was only ever going to be an inconvenience in their lifetimes so why bother.

Here is the bad news. If as little as 3% of the Boomers fought to get it taken care of it would be fixed now. Not even 3% had sufficient grit. So worst generation ever is appropriate. They should be ashamed. https://www.ericachenoweth.com/research/wcrw

Boomers are welcome to fix the mess they left everyone to ever come after them. But they won't. They are so afflicted with the selfish rot of capitalism they have no moral spine left with which to stand. Only their deaths will lead to change now and humanity will pay the price for their greed for thousands of years.
Last edited by Nemo on Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by justsit » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:23 pm

Nemo wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:32 pm
Climate change would have been easy to deal with 40 years ago.
Please document your 3% participation claim (in your next post. I quoted your previous post).

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Nemo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:28 pm

justsit wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:23 pm
Nemo wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:32 pm
Climate change would have been easy to deal with 40 years ago.
Please document your 3% participation claim (in your next post. I quoted your previous post).
Good Summary
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/02 ... ent-2.html

Whole thing.
https://www.ericachenoweth.com/wp-conte ... pendix.pdf

Even 1.5% would have had an 80% chance at winning. 3% is overkill. Not 1 in 100 of that generation is worth anything.
Last edited by Nemo on Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by justsit » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:31 pm

Nemo wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:28 pm
justsit wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:23 pm
Nemo wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:32 pm
Climate change would have been easy to deal with 40 years ago.
Please document your 3% participation claim (in your next post. I quoted your previous post).
Good Summary
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/02 ... ent-2.html

Whole thing.
https://www.ericachenoweth.com/wp-conte ... pendix.pdf
There's 184+ pages of documents there, can you pinpoint the sections that discuss environmental action?

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Nemo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:33 pm

Read the summary.

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Vasana » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:42 pm

I don't think it's always as simple as saying the boomers should of known and done better. A bad system will usually always beat a good person. It's really companies like Exxon mobile and those with vested interests who are to blame for deliberately muddying the waters and augmenting the margin of doubt and uncertainty for so long...while many mainstream media outlets served as a platform for sceptics long after consensus was reached.

Then there's the overly conservative IPCC and their insistence on not expressing their own political opinions.

It's always been a war on sense making and it still is. It's difficult to make well informed decisions when you're not only uninformed but also deliberately misinformed.

ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by justsit » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:48 pm

Nemo wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:33 pm
Read the summary.
I'm seeing lots of discussion on violent vs. non-violent action, different discussions on some social issues in the comments, nothing specific to environmental issues.

Are you extrapolating her premises?

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by justsit » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:01 pm

Vasana wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:42 pm
I don't think it's always as simple as saying the boomers should of known and done better. A bad system will usually always beat a good person. It's really companies like Exxon mobile and those with vested interests who are to blame for deliberately muddying the waters and augmenting the margin of doubt and uncertainty for so long...while many mainstream media outlets served as a platform for sceptics long after consensus was reached.

Then there's the overly conservative IPCC and their insistence on not expressing their own political opinions.

It's always been a war on sense making and it still is. It's difficult to make well informed decisions when you're not only uninformed but also deliberately misinformed.
Agree.

The deck was stacked then, as it is now. There is no political will among those who are in positions to effect change, in particular the "superpowers", to actually do so.

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Vasana » Sat Dec 28, 2019 5:04 pm

justsit wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:48 pm
Nemo wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:33 pm
Read the summary.
I'm seeing lots of discussion on violent vs. non-violent action, different discussions on some social issues in the comments, nothing specific to environmental issues.

Are you extrapolating her premises?
The whole premise of extinction rebellion was founded on that 3.5% theory. Greta also gave her thumbs up in support of non violent civil disobedience.
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Mantrik » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:17 pm

Nemo wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:30 pm
I think the Boomers ended up being the most selfish generation in history. Their only defence is they were brainwashed by laissez faire capitalist doctrine. They climbed up the ladder built by the Greatest generation and then pulled it up after them. They won't live long enough to see the coming climate catastrophes. Maybe the world can heal once enough of these selfish monsters die off.
Why not generalise about a massive proportion of the world's population, and lump everyone in a generation together for condemnation and a good old-fashioned death wish?
Why not ignore their context totally - you know, the tiny things they had on their minds, like impending nuclear war and total annihilation caused by that 'greatest generation' before them, or in some of our cases, being blown to firkin pieces by the IRA.
Have you any idea how ridiculously simplistic the whole 'boomers' identification is?

If self-appointed 'Extinction Rebellion' activists had a clue about anything other than how to protest in ever dafter ways, they would abandon the whinge and rant against the public, like the Greens in Germany who have 20% of the vote.

Back to wondering if this is a Buddhist forum at all.
Do carry on.
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Vasana » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:37 pm

Mantrik wrote: If self-appointed 'Extinction Rebellion' activists had a clue about anything other than how to protest in ever dafter ways, they would abandon the whinge and rant against the public, like the Greens in Germany who have 20% of the vote.

Back to wondering if this is a Buddhist forum at all.
Do carry on.
Worth noting that since Extinction Rebellon and Greta hit the mainstream;

"1,261 jurisdictions in 25 countries have declared a climate emergency. Populations covered by jurisdictions that have declared a climate emergency amount to 798 million citizens, with 55 million of these living in the United Kingdom. This means in Britain now over 80 per cent of the population lives in areas that have declared a climate emergency, almost 400 councils all together. In New Zealand, the percentage is nearly as high: 74 per cent of the population."

Source: https://climateemergencydeclaration.org/

They have both significantly influenced the public discourse on climate and the role of civic participation in global politics. So they may have daft methods but they've been effective to the degree of getting people talking about it. Here we are, talking about it.

Also worth noting that Extinction rebellion is also active in Germany.

It's a Buddhist forum but it's also the lounge section. I think it's pretty cheap to pull that card every time someone posts a different political view to our own. No true Scotsman!
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Mantrik » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:43 pm

Vasana wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:37 pm


It's a Buddhist forum but it's also the lounge section. I think it's pretty cheap to pull that card every time someone posts a different political view to our own. No true Scotsman!
Since when has wishing people dead been a 'political view' . Whether directed at an individual or an entire generation, I will question those values, thank you.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Vasana » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:04 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:43 pm
Vasana wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:37 pm


It's a Buddhist forum but it's also the lounge section. I think it's pretty cheap to pull that card every time someone posts a different political view to our own. No true Scotsman!
Since when has wishing people dead been a 'political view' . Whether directed at an individual or an entire generation, I will question those values, thank you.
I never read Nemos post as wishing people dead rather just stating that their death would result in a different political landscape. It's true there is a big difference in voting demographics with younger voters tending to lean more left and progressive than the older generations who tend to be more conservative.
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:14 pm

Nemo wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:14 pm
You can, "I didn't know they were taking the Jews to death camps," all you want. I was a full time environmentalist in the 80s/90s. The ozone layer was easy to fix. Easy because it would effect them personally. Climate change was only ever going to be an inconvenience in their lifetimes so why bother.

Here is the bad news. If as little as 3% of the Boomers fought to get it taken care of it would be fixed now. Not even 3% had sufficient grit. So worst generation ever is appropriate. They should be ashamed. https://www.ericachenoweth.com/research/wcrw

Boomers are welcome to fix the mess they left everyone to ever come after them. But they won't. They are so afflicted with the selfish rot of capitalism they have no moral spine left with which to stand. Only their deaths will lead to change now and humanity will pay the price for their greed for thousands of years.
"Yes, the world is already burning, and the planet will in all likelihood turn into a living hell before long -- but since we cannot do really very much about it, no, I will not stop flying, or take it to the streets, or even concede to a dramatic decrease in my standard of living for the sake of a better future of a country I have never visited and do not really plan to": a sentence the vast majority of my students have been repeating, with some limited variation, since I started teaching at uni in 2004.

Also, the boomers did not start the engine of the industrial revolution. You have to go back to the Renaissance to find the first findable threads of the present-day catastrophe.

(I am not saying that the boomer generation does not have a major part in this. But generation blaming rests on one vast overgeneralisation -- btw, boomers can be found only in the history of the affluent West, and tbh strictly speaking only in the anglophone countries, the term does not really fit the south of Europe, for instance -- and it is just patently pointless, in the end.)
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:16 pm

Vasana wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:04 pm
It's true there is a big difference in voting demographics with younger voters tending to lean more left and progressive than the older generations who tend to be more conservative.
Depends very much on the country.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Mantrik » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:18 pm

Vasana wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:04 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:43 pm
Vasana wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:37 pm


It's a Buddhist forum but it's also the lounge section. I think it's pretty cheap to pull that card every time someone posts a different political view to our own. No true Scotsman!
Since when has wishing people dead been a 'political view' . Whether directed at an individual or an entire generation, I will question those values, thank you.
I never read Nemos post as wishing people dead rather just stating that their death would result in a different political landscape. It's true there is a big difference in voting demographics with younger voters tending to lean more left and progressive than the older generations who tend to be more conservative.
Clearly, if I tell you the world would be better with you dead, I see it as a desirable outcome. Same goes if you categorise others as 'selfish monsters' whose deaths are to be seen as beneficial. Ridiculous hyperbole maybe, or heartfelt, which would be worrying and more worthy of a Facebook rant than a Buddhist forum discussion. No more to add.
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Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Queequeg » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:53 pm

Folks, please bring the tone down a little or we will have to lock. I don't see any personal attacks but the intergenerational tension is being taken personally.

A wise man counseled thinking three times before speaking. We all could take that advice especially when things get hot.

:group:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Why Greta Thunberg Should Be Time’s Person of the Year

Post by Nemo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:48 pm

OK Boomer.

Kids "Hey, you guys knowingly destroyed the ecosystem of the entire planet. Do you at least feel bad about cursing us all to live in the hellscape you created because fixing it was mildly inconvenient?"

Boomers "Saying this is an actual hate crime."

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