My explanation of emptiness

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empting
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My explanation of emptiness

Post by empting »

emptiness is like a glass of water, when you pour out the water the glass is empty

but there is a glass, because there is a glass you know there is emptiness of a glass

the concept of Buddhism emptiness is without the glass itself, without measurement, without the container, how is it possible you know something is empty without an anchor of measurement?

without container or measurement, everything is empty and everything is exist

just like your flat, there is wall so you know the room is empty, without the wall of your flat everything become one space (earth), one is empty, and empty is one earth

the concept of Buddhism extend until the emptiness of the universe but at the same time represent everything

so empty is everything
everything is empty when there is no boundary or container or diluted like a salt in water

hence emptiness is everything

in my example, emptiness is reversed by water in glass or furniture in flat

but the same concept applies to emotions

emotions is harden and cause sadness or happiness to exist, the harden of energy creates emotion that cause it to exist as water or furniture in the space of emotion

when the emotion is diluted, every sadness or happiness is one and inseparable, that is when the ego is atom size ego, which is very small ego that accept sadness or happiness and see it thoroughly as impermanent

hence the atom is not influenced by happiness nor sadness, hence it is empty and diluted without boundary of emotions or hardening of existence of emotions

without a glass, how do you know there is no water in a non existent glass?

existence is measured by precondition which is the existence of something to measure the existence

without the precondition there is no identifiable of existence

hence when people sees everything as one, everything is empty and exist at the same time
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

My favorite part of that is:
“the atom is not influenced by happiness nor sadness”
I think your final conclusion is accurate
Although your method of getting there
doesn’t really reflect the meaning of ‘emptiness’
as it is generally used in Buddhist teachings.
But hey, if it it works for you, that’s what matters.

“emptiness” (sunyata) in Buddhism means
Empty - of - a - self - essence.
So, we can call a glass a glass,
But there is no such thing as glass-ness about it, full, poured out, broken, or otherwise.
As you suggest, everything is only what it is
when compared with everything else.
.
.
.
Be kind.
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Aemilius
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by Aemilius »

A shoe is not a shoe ( i.e. a form is not a form), which means that shoes do not exist without feet. Same is true with all objects that we see and perceive, like cars, houses, medicine, food, trees, lakes, etc... We see them through the needs of our body and the needs of our mind. The same idea (of emptiness) is expressed in Heidegger's philosophy as "the-thing-in-itself", which can't be known, because we can only see things as objects of our desires, habits, needs, likes and dislikes. Therefore the thing-in-it-self is unknowable to us, (or it is unknowable what it is from its own side, in madhyamaka terminology).
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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nowmindful
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by nowmindful »

Emptiness means non-self, soulless or just purely fake. The Heart Sutra says, "Form is emptiness; emptiness is form; form is not other than emptiness; emptiness is not other than form." Just treat them as real as they seem real but not too attached to them! Even if that's real there is impermanence. This is my understanding.
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Queequeg
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by Queequeg »

A
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Minobu
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by Minobu »

Sunyata is simple enough yet took me about five years of contemplation and teachings from Rinpoche to get it.

The emptiness Lord Nagarjuna taught us is this :

Samsaric "Reality" is at the same time has the aspects of existence and nonexistence... it's somewhere in the middle.

Nothing is inherent as well.

Sentients believe all is real and permanent , even if you add change into the picture..it still seems inherent and permanently here or was here on it's own.

but nothing exist by itself.

take a bell.

first the ore had to be mined and smelted ..then formed into a bell then tuned..

take any of these components out of the picture and it did not happen..it only happened due to a multitude of factors..

so the bell is empty of inherent existence..and yet it is here we can feel see and hear it..so it is both existing and not really existing of it's own accord.

thats the emptiness ..empty of inherent existence .

Everything is like this...co arising and codependent. if thats the case then everything is empty of inherent existence..and yet on a level it is happening..so emptiness is not nihilistic...just a touch of nihilism to the fact it really is not inherent , because on a level it's conventionally here.

now there is an actual conventional way of being..like we are experiencing something somewhere and producing Karma as we dwell .

All of which is very real and yet just not as real as we think it is..

now here is the thing that some don't agree with...

sunyata leads to a philosophical view that everything is dependant on everything in order to exist in this reality we refer to as the cycle of Samsara.

If you truly understand your place in this Samsaric existence then compassion should come to the fore front due to the very nature of it all.

it's sort of like hurting yourself when we harm or abuse anything else here. Which is also co arising and co dependant and interdependent

We show appreciation for all that keeps us alive , experiencing , producing and learning..it's all "ONE"

without food water and oxygen...no more conventional you in this reality.
it took two to do something to get you here....mom and dad that is...

trees take in carbon dioxide and produce oxygen through photosynthesis thats a co arising . a basic interdependent thing in order to happen..

now this is why Buddhist do not believe in a soul..a permanent thing ...and yet we go on to be reborn in various samsaric worlds and realms.

If not a soul then what it is it eh? I don't know...but we are not islands unto ourselves..Man does not live on bread alone.

hope it helps...

it's vague..i am not a teacher..just a student who knows i don't fully get it yet..

going over it over and over is my way.
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Aemilius
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by Aemilius »

Minobu wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:51 pm
take a bell.

first the ore had to be mined and smelted ..then formed into a bell then tuned..

take any of these components out of the picture and it did not happen..it only happened due to a multitude of factors..

so the bell is empty of inherent existence..and yet it is here we can feel see and hear it..so it is both existing and not really existing of it's own accord.
How do atoms, ions and molecules exist?
Do they exist before you, and before your parents were born?
Do they exist before the Sun and planet Earth were formed?
If yes, they exist independent of you.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
SteRo
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by SteRo »

"explanation of emptiness" is an oxymoron. Be sure that if you rely on any explanation you are uncurable.
Simon E.
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by Simon E. »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:56 am "explanation of emptiness" is an oxymoron. Be sure that if you rely on any explanation you are uncurable.
Does that include explaining the explanations of others?
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
SteRo
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by SteRo »

Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:10 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:56 am "explanation of emptiness" is an oxymoron. Be sure that if you rely on any explanation you are uncurable.
Does that include explaining the explanations of others?
My comment refers to the subject that whants to 'understand' (metaphor) emptiness. You can explain whatever you like - you will never explain emptiness.
Simon E.
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by Simon E. »

The person concerned has made it clear that they are exploring these issues. How can a dismissal of their question be helpful?
How can a description of them as “uncurable” help? ( I am assuming that you actually meant ‘incurable’).
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
SteRo
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by SteRo »

Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:33 pm The person concerned has made it clear that they are exploring these issues.
Yes that's how it usually occurs.
Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:33 pm How can a dismissal of their question be helpful?
The title is "My explanation of emptiness". That doesn't read like a question. Where there is no question no question can be dismissed.
Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:33 pm How can a description of them as “uncurable” help? ( I am assuming that you actually meant ‘incurable’).
"Be sure that if you rely on any explanation you are uncurable." that's a warning advice. Not more not less. Also, a reliance on an explanation may not be permanent and therefore uncurability may be impermanent, too.
Malcolm
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:23 pm
Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:10 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:56 am "explanation of emptiness" is an oxymoron. Be sure that if you rely on any explanation you are uncurable.
Does that include explaining the explanations of others?
My comment refers to the subject that whants to 'understand' (metaphor) emptiness. You can explain whatever you like - you will never explain emptiness.
I guess Madhyamaka is utterly pointless then. :roll:
Simon E.
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by Simon E. »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:20 pm
Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:33 pm The person concerned has made it clear that they are exploring these issues.
Yes that's how it usually occurs.
Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:33 pm How can a dismissal of their question be helpful?
The title is "My explanation of emptiness". That doesn't read like a question. Where there is no question no question can be dismissed.
Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:33 pm How can a description of them as “uncurable” help? ( I am assuming that you actually meant ‘incurable’).
"Be sure that if you rely on any explanation you are uncurable." that's a warning advice. Not more not less. Also, a reliance on an explanation may not be permanent and therefore uncurability may be impermanent, too.
Who the hell are you to issue “warnings” to people you don’t know? :lol: Patronising much?
Edited
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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PeterC
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by PeterC »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:23 pm
Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:10 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:56 am "explanation of emptiness" is an oxymoron. Be sure that if you rely on any explanation you are uncurable.
Does that include explaining the explanations of others?
My comment refers to the subject that whants to 'understand' (metaphor) emptiness. You can explain whatever you like - you will never explain emptiness.
So Nagarjuna Chandrakirti Gorampa Tsongkhapa and countless others were all just wasting their time writing nonsense, and I was just wasting my time reading it. Got it. It’s such a shame I didn’t meet someone as wise as you years ago, would have saved me a lot of time...
SteRo
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by SteRo »

Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:22 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:20 pm
Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:33 pm The person concerned has made it clear that they are exploring these issues.
Yes that's how it usually occurs.
Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:33 pm How can a dismissal of their question be helpful?
The title is "My explanation of emptiness". That doesn't read like a question. Where there is no question no question can be dismissed.
Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:33 pm How can a description of them as “uncurable” help? ( I am assuming that you actually meant ‘incurable’).
"Be sure that if you rely on any explanation you are uncurable." that's a warning advice. Not more not less. Also, a reliance on an explanation may not be permanent and therefore uncurability may be impermanent, too.
Who the hell are you to issue “warnings” to people you don’t know? :lol:
I think that's justified when someone opens a thread "My explanation of emptiness".
Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:22 pm Patronising much?
Compassionate warning.
Simon E.
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by Simon E. »

:popcorn:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
SteRo
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Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:29 pm

Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by SteRo »

PeterC wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:45 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:23 pm
Simon E. wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:10 pm

Does that include explaining the explanations of others?
My comment refers to the subject that whants to 'understand' (metaphor) emptiness. You can explain whatever you like - you will never explain emptiness.
So Nagarjuna Chandrakirti Gorampa Tsongkhapa and countless others were all just wasting their time writing nonsense, and I was just wasting my time reading it.
Don't know. Are you liberated meanwhile? Exceptions confirm the rule.
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Queequeg
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by Queequeg »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:02 am How do atoms, ions and molecules exist?
An ion is a kind of atom or molecule that has a positive or negative charge. An atom is a primary, relatively stable, particle of matter which is in turn made up of protons, electrons and neutrons. Molecules are combinations of bonded atoms.

Do they exist? From a Mahayana perspective, they do not exist except in a relative sense. Same as any other compounded dharma.
Do they exist before you, and before your parents were born?
Do they exist before the Sun and planet Earth were formed?
If yes, they exist independent of you.
What if the answer to these questions is "no" or "don't know"? How does one answer this in the affirmative except as a matter of faith?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Aemilius
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Re: My explanation of emptiness

Post by Aemilius »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:23 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:02 am How do atoms, ions and molecules exist?
An ion is a kind of atom or molecule that has a positive or negative charge. An atom is a primary, relatively stable, particle of matter which is in turn made up of protons, electrons and neutrons. Molecules are combinations of bonded atoms.

Do they exist? From a Mahayana perspective, they do not exist except in a relative sense. Same as any other compounded dharma.
Do they exist before you, and before your parents were born?
Do they exist before the Sun and planet Earth were formed?
If yes, they exist independent of you.
What if the answer to these questions is "no" or "don't know"? How does one answer this in the affirmative except as a matter of faith?
Conventional reality is habitual to such an extent that it is never doubted. You cannot seriously doubt whether the atoms that make up the porridge you eat exist before your consumption of the porridge or not. It is not even "faith", it is considered to be a fact, normally. And still buddhist masters have declared matter or its particles to be without true existence. How do they get away with that? Vasubandhu has one explanation in his Vimshati-karika or Twenty verses and its commentary. Part of his logic goes: Devas, humans, and pretas see same reality, i.e. same elements, but because of their different stock of merit each class of beings sees a different world. They see ambrosia, water or pus, depending on their habitual tendencies or their collection of merit. To physics and chemistry water is composed of atoms or molecules, and they are not dependent on some mystical "merit". Physics and chemistry believe that water exists inherently, independent of us humans. But this is denied in Madhyamaka and Yogacara. Another kind of proof is magical powers, for example, Chandrakirti once milked a picture of a cow, to get some food for his retinue of monks. If you experience this kind of events, you may begin to believe that matter does not really exist. But some people still believe that matter exists, and they or others around them say that they have been "hallucinating". Thus the belief in outer reality is not necessarily broken. Or it may come back again after some time.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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