Freemasonry

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
Malcolm
Posts: 32412
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Malcolm »

Simon E. wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:30 pm The London Buddhist Society started out as a section of the Theosophical Society.
A senior member told me a few years ago that it had taken a long time and much effort to rid the Society of the influence of Theosophy. It had taken the deaths of the old guard, including Christmas Humphreys, before a true picture started to emerge of Dharma. Like restoring a masterwork that had become encrusted with extraneous material and layers of obscuring wax and smoke.
No doubt. Theosophy is the original New Age movement, and the source of it all. New agers never give up bad ideas, but just keep piling more and more "esoteric" crap on top of the old "esoteric" crap, like sea birds filling an Island with guano. The only difference is that guano can be used as fertilizer, whereas nothing but mental weeds grow in New Age manure.
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Simon E. »

I can’t speak for Western Buddhists. I can tell you that I reject Theosophy because it has made up doctrine, a falsified history and was promulgated by charlatans. It even smelt wrong.

When the real thing arrived in the UK courtesy of Tibetans, Zennists, and later by hard headed Theravadins like Ajahn Chahs Forest Monks, Theosophy simply withered on the vine. It’s “hidden masters” in their Himalayan caves shown to be the fantasies of orientalists and their credulous hangers- on. It’s “ scriptures” with their semi Biblical quasi religiosity, shown to be the invention of self promoters.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Sādhaka
Posts: 790
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Sādhaka »

Nonetheless, the work that David Reigle and David Pratt are doing on the ‘Book of Dzyan’ and the ‘Book of Kiu-Te’ is kind of interesting; as well as Blavatsky’s connections with the Panchen Lama of her time.
User avatar
Shiva
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:41 pm

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Shiva »

Sādhaka wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:59 pm Nonetheless, the work that David Reigle and another guy (I can’t remember his name at the moment) are doing on the ‘Book of Dzyan’ and the ‘Book of Kiu-Te’ is kind of interesting; as well as Blavatsky’s connections with the Panchen Lama of her time.
Let’s note that despite Blavatsky being a Freemason she had not influence within any form of Masonry. The only two rituals that mentioned before, and that I know about as having a Theosophical influence; is through Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater.
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Simon E. »

I once heard Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche and Akong Rinpoche replying to questions from a Theosophist who had pitched up at Samye-Ling expecting confirmation about Blavatsky’s status as some kind of Bodhisattva..
It was short, sharp, and pretty brutal. At one point Akong R was shaking with laughter concerning the credulity of some Westerners and “The Mystic East”.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Malcolm
Posts: 32412
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Malcolm »

Shiva wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:03 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:59 pm Nonetheless, the work that David Reigle and another guy (I can’t remember his name at the moment) are doing on the ‘Book of Dzyan’ and the ‘Book of Kiu-Te’ is kind of interesting; as well as Blavatsky’s connections with the Panchen Lama of her time.
Let’s note that despite Blavatsky being a Freemason she had not influence within any form of Masonry. The only two rituals that mentioned before, and that I know about as having a Theosophical influence; is through Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater.
She wasn't a regular mason at all, despite the fact that she received the rite of adoption from John Yarker.
User avatar
Shiva
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:41 pm

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Shiva »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:01 pm
Shiva wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:03 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:59 pm Nonetheless, the work that David Reigle and another guy (I can’t remember his name at the moment) are doing on the ‘Book of Dzyan’ and the ‘Book of Kiu-Te’ is kind of interesting; as well as Blavatsky’s connections with the Panchen Lama of her time.
Let’s note that despite Blavatsky being a Freemason she had not influence within any form of Masonry. The only two rituals that mentioned before, and that I know about as having a Theosophical influence; is through Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater.
She wasn't a regular mason at all, despite the fact that she received the rite of adoption from John Yarker.
She was not in the Rite of Adoption but in the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis-Misraim.
User avatar
Shiva
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:41 pm

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Shiva »

Shiva wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:01 pm
Shiva wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:03 pm

Let’s note that despite Blavatsky being a Freemason she had not influence within any form of Masonry. The only two rituals that mentioned before, and that I know about as having a Theosophical influence; is through Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater.
She wasn't a regular mason at all, despite the fact that she received the rite of adoption from John Yarker.
She was not in the Rite of Adoption but in the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis-Misraim.
In the time the title that Yarker used for the Rite was “Ancient and Primitive Rite of Masonry” but was exactly Memphis-Misraim or ar least might be considered a derivative of Memphis-Misraim.
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Simon E. »

Well that’s alright then..just as long as we are clear..:lol:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Malcolm
Posts: 32412
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Malcolm »

Shiva wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:46 pm
Shiva wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:01 pm

She wasn't a regular mason at all, despite the fact that she received the rite of adoption from John Yarker.
She was not in the Rite of Adoption but in the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis-Misraim.
In the time the title that Yarker used for the Rite was “Ancient and Primitive Rite of Masonry” but was exactly Memphis-Misraim or ar least might be considered a derivative of Memphis-Misraim.
Helena P. Blavatsky is often misreported as having been initiated into Freemasonry. She herself explicitly denies that. The report is based on a misunderstanding of her “Masonic diploma,” which was given to her by John Yarker, the head of one of the additional degree systems, the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Masonry, which included a Rite of Adoption (that is, an associated body that initiated women). The diploma granted her the highest degree of that Rite, Crowned Princess 12º, but was in effect an honor without initiation.
https://www.theosophy.world/encyclopedia/freemasonry
User avatar
Shiva
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:41 pm

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Shiva »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:17 pm
Shiva wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:46 pm
Shiva wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:42 pm

She was not in the Rite of Adoption but in the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Memphis-Misraim.
In the time the title that Yarker used for the Rite was “Ancient and Primitive Rite of Masonry” but was exactly Memphis-Misraim or ar least might be considered a derivative of Memphis-Misraim.
Helena P. Blavatsky is often misreported as having been initiated into Freemasonry. She herself explicitly denies that. The report is based on a misunderstanding of her “Masonic diploma,” which was given to her by John Yarker, the head of one of the additional degree systems, the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Masonry, which included a Rite of Adoption (that is, an associated body that initiated women). The diploma granted her the highest degree of that Rite, Crowned Princess 12º, but was in effect an honor without initiation.
https://www.theosophy.world/encyclopedia/freemasonry
Well, in fact she once wrote a letter saying that was the 32 degree of a Masonic Rite in England. The diploma that appears online is actually for a 33 degree and also enunciates all the degrees of the Rite beginning with the three Craft Degrees (Entered Apprentice, Fellow-craft and Master Mason). Lastly, as a matter of fact there have been accounts of Grand Masters doing Masons by sight which means that they grant the degrees without the need for someone to actually pass through the ceremonies and those individuals, having been Masons by sight are perfectly recognized as Freemasons within the same jurisdiction and recognized bodies.

Anyhow, indeed she was not a regular mason but the masonic lineage of John Yarker is totally valid in my opinion.
Malcolm
Posts: 32412
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Malcolm »

Shiva wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:28 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:17 pm
Shiva wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:46 pm

In the time the title that Yarker used for the Rite was “Ancient and Primitive Rite of Masonry” but was exactly Memphis-Misraim or ar least might be considered a derivative of Memphis-Misraim.
Helena P. Blavatsky is often misreported as having been initiated into Freemasonry. She herself explicitly denies that. The report is based on a misunderstanding of her “Masonic diploma,” which was given to her by John Yarker, the head of one of the additional degree systems, the Ancient and Primitive Rite of Masonry, which included a Rite of Adoption (that is, an associated body that initiated women). The diploma granted her the highest degree of that Rite, Crowned Princess 12º, but was in effect an honor without initiation.
https://www.theosophy.world/encyclopedia/freemasonry
Well, in fact she once wrote a letter saying that was the 32 degree of a Masonic Rite in England. The diploma that appears online is actually for a 33 degree and also enunciates all the degrees of the Rite beginning with the three Craft Degrees (Entered Apprentice, Fellow-craft and Master Mason).
It concludes with Crown Princess, that's it, and it explicitly states it is a rite of adoption. I suggest you zoom in on the writing.

No one is disputing Yarker's prestige in Masonry.
User avatar
Shiva
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:41 pm

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Shiva »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:59 pm
Shiva wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:28 pm
Well, in fact she once wrote a letter saying that was the 32 degree of a Masonic Rite in England. The diploma that appears online is actually for a 33 degree and also enunciates all the degrees of the Rite beginning with the three Craft Degrees (Entered Apprentice, Fellow-craft and Master Mason).
It concludes with Crown Princess, that's it, and it explicitly states it is a rite of adoption. I suggest you zoom in on the writing.

No one is disputing Yarker's prestige in Masonry.
Yes, seems that you are right. Anyhow there is also this letter she once wrote claiming a 32 degree. Also, the Masonic degrees properly speaking are just the ones of Entered Apprentice, Fellow-craft and Master Mason that she indeed had.

Blavatsky is one of this dark figures of the Craft with no clear information regarding, how, when, where, why and what after? Anyhow, as I said before, nor theosophical, nor egyptian masonry correspond to what most masonic lodges do and are worldwide. :namaste:
tatpurusa
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Freemasonry

Post by tatpurusa »

I think the only interesting person within the whole Theosophy was Jiddu Krishnamurti, but he also only after having left it.
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4200
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

I know nothing of Masonry except that HPB mentioned it often, not always favorably. Here is a remark from a 1890 letter to friend. She talking about an 'occult brotherhood' she was familiar with:
[This brotherhood] is‭ of untold antiquity, and is as much‭ Masonic‭ as present Masonry ‭is little ‭Masonic...
May all seek, find & follow the Path of Buddhas.
User avatar
PeterC
Posts: 2522
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Freemasonry

Post by PeterC »

tatpurusa wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:06 pm I think the only interesting person within the whole Theosophy was Jiddu Krishnamurti, but he also only after having left it.
He was quite an inspiring writer, and he did have the sense to distance himself from the theosophy cosplay early on. Though at heart he still looks much like the modern Indian guru charlatan - of which there are many - just dressed up in western clothing.
Sādhaka
Posts: 790
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Sādhaka »

Shiva wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:33 pmI do agree that most lodges in english-speaking countries are more focused on charity work (and dinners) but in other parts of the world Freemasonry offers a true spiritual path that easily adapts to personal believes and practices. (Except in countries like Sweden where brothers practice Christian Masonry)
Nicholas Weeks wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:06 pm I know nothing of Masonry except that HPB mentioned it often, not always favorably. Here is a remark from a 1890 letter to friend. She talking about an 'occult brotherhood' she was familiar with:
[This brotherhood] is‭ of untold antiquity, and is as much‭ Masonic‭ as present Masonry ‭is little ‭Masonic...

Sādhaka wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:54 pm
H.P. Blavatsky wrote:That we may not be accused of vain boasting, we shall give the keys to several of the secret ciphers of the most exclusive and important of the so-called higher Masonic degrees. If we mistake not, these have never before been revealed to the outside world (except that of the Royal Arch Masons, in 1830), but have been most jealously guarded within the various Orders. We are under neither promise, obligation, nor oath; and therefore violate no confidence. Our purpose is not to gratify an idle curiosity; we wish merely to show Masons and the affiliates of all other Western societies — the Company of Jesus included — that it is impossible for them to be secure in the possession of any secrets that it is worth an Eastern Brotherhood's while to discover. Inferentially, it may also show them that if the latter can lift the masks of European societies, they are nevertheless successful in wearing their own visors; for, if any one thing is universally acknowledged, it is that the real secrets of not a single surviving ancient brotherhood are in possession of the profane.

Some of these ciphers were used by the Jesuits in their secret correspondence at the time of the Jacobin conspiracy, and when Masonry (the alleged successor to the Temple) was employed by the Church for political purposes. - Isis Unveiled

🧐 🤔
Sādhaka
Posts: 790
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Sādhaka »

(Swedenborg is known to have been a follower of Christian-oriented Masonry)....

On the Lost Word of Masonry (which I believe to be not a “word”, but one letter, hidden in plain-sight this whole time in India, “Tartary, China, and Thibet”):




Tartary....
User avatar
PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 3990
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Freemasonry

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:28 pm
They are both products of the human religious impulse towards the creation of human religions, and thus have an extraordinary amount of material in common, because they have to address the same human fears and concerns, albeit with different answers.
There’s a slight problem in saying “all basically the same” using similarity as a basis. The similarity has no intrinsic reality to it. It isn’t a thing at all, merely the pairing up of random parts. You can’t really say that things are truly different or similar.

I often use the example of a birthday party. People gather in a dark room, light candles on a specially prepared offering, sing the familiar liturgy, then the selected person (holding a particular privilege based on what auspicious day it is) makes a wish that must be kept in total secrecy or it is invalidated, then blows out the candles in order to make the secret wish come true!

If that’s not some kind of religion, then I don’t know what is. But would you consider it as the world’s most widely practiced religion? Would you compare Christianity, with Birthdaypartianity”?
.
.
.
Be kind.
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Freemasonry

Post by Simon E. »

My Uncle Harry was a Member of The Ancient Order of Buffaloes. During his wanderings around the flatlands of Penge he was initiated into Lobsang Rampa’s Secret Society of the Penguin, an Ancient Occult Brotherhood dedicated to protecting mankind from Koala Bears because they are in fact small demons which fled to the mainland when Atlantis sank beneath the waves.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Post Reply

Return to “Lounge”