Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

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Simon E.
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Simon E. »

What are you reading Dan? Prominent Tories deny anthropogenic climate change on a daily basis! Including half of Boris’s cabinet and most of the Tory press...
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Malcolm
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Malcolm »

Dan74 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:42 pm
You seriously think that was the reason? Borges didn't do well at all under the quasi-fascist Peron government. Didn't push him to the Left though. He had reasons for his convictions. Just like Tolkien.
Peron's government was a fascist government. But he, like Mussolini (and unlike Hitler) began his political career on the left. Borges, to his credit, was horrified by Fascism and was vocal about. He had a a variety of political positions, and his identification with conservatism was as a classical liberal. But today most conservatives hew to Burke, rather than Locke and Smith.

But I am talking about the kind of Anglo American conservatism we see today: reflected in punitive austerity measures, the abandonment of social safety nets, climate change denialism, and so on.
Look at the long-standing opposition to coal-mining reduction in Poland or reduction in native timbers logging in Australia. In both cases by left-wing unions. It's not surprising really, since as you imply, it is human nature to look after our own livelihood. But you seem to suggest that this is prevalent on the Right, while the Left selflessly fight for the common good.
I definitely think this is more prevalent on the right than on the left. And in fact, those unions in Poland and Australia are fighting for a common good, just one that is short-sighted.
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Malcolm »

Simon E. wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:51 pm What are you reading Dan? Prominent Tories deny anthropogenic climate change on a daily basis! Including half of Boris’s cabinet and most of the Tory press...
Yes, they are all Trumpsters now.
Simon E.
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Simon E. »

Aye. Boris is Trump’s mini-me.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

While I do not want to assume too much I do have to tell you that in case of Poland for example the thing with coal mines is bit complicated and applying your US-UK political paradigm won't work.

You do have to realize that first of all the american political standards are kinda messed up. Here in central Europe and especially countries that were communist, things are really different. Here universal healthcare and unions are the normal standard. The reason why coalminers are against closing coal mines, are of course because of their jobs, but also here unions can be more conservative (not the usa messed up conservative) and traditional than socialist. In post-communist countries communism and socialism is the "conservative" ideology, or at least how it is represented by communist parties, or labour unions. The real left here is just as dead as everywhere else basically.
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Malcolm
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:52 pm
You do have to realize that first of all the american political standards are kinda messed up. Here in central Europe and especially countries that were communist, things are really different. Here universal healthcare and unions are the normal standard.
Yup.

The reason why coalminers are against closing coal mines, are of course because of their jobs, but also here unions can be more conservative (not the usa messed up conservative) and traditional than socialist.
That is true of Solidarity, certainly.
In post-communist countries communism and socialism is the "conservative" ideology, or at least how it is represented by communist parties, or labour unions. The real left here is just as dead as everywhere else basically.
Yup. Polish Gvt. is right wing, and once the UK sells off their national health, you can expect other countries to do the same, though of course, not every EU country has a national health, like Germany for example.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:18 pm Yup. Polish Gvt. is right wing, and once the UK sells off their national health, you can expect other countries to do the same, though of course, not every EU country has a national health, like Germany for example.
That is probable unfortunately. In some cases like here in Czech Republic, the national health system will most probably collapse due to not getting enough attention and money from the state.
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Nemo
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Nemo »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:18 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:52 pm
You do have to realize that first of all the american political standards are kinda messed up. Here in central Europe and especially countries that were communist, things are really different. Here universal healthcare and unions are the normal standard.
Yup.

The reason why coalminers are against closing coal mines, are of course because of their jobs, but also here unions can be more conservative (not the usa messed up conservative) and traditional than socialist.
That is true of Solidarity, certainly.
In post-communist countries communism and socialism is the "conservative" ideology, or at least how it is represented by communist parties, or labour unions. The real left here is just as dead as everywhere else basically.
Yup. Polish Gvt. is right wing, and once the UK sells off their national health, you can expect other countries to do the same, though of course, not every EU country has a national health, like Germany for example.
Problem is socialized medicine works incredibly well Malcolm. I worked in hospitals for years. Few things make Canadians violent. Refusing them care was incredibly dangerous in my experience. Whoever takes it away is a dead man.
Malcolm
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Malcolm »

Nemo wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:36 pm Problem is socialized medicine works incredibly well Malcolm.
Yes, which is why I support Sanders.

I worked in hospitals for years. Few things make Canadians violent. Refusing them care was incredibly dangerous in my experience. Whoever takes it away is a dead man.
Maybe. England is different than Canada: fear of Boris was not enough to keep people from voting him in. NHS is on the chopping block soon, you can bet.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nh ... 41881.html
ford_truckin
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by ford_truckin »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:48 pm
ford_truckin wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:37 pm Best not to express your views too openly if you happen to be a conservative. A pro-life, pro traditional marriage stance will get you banned fast even though you can find support for these viewpoints in Buddhist texts.
Stop exaggerating. No one has ever been banned for expressing pro-life or pro traditional marriage views. They get banned for posting slurs and other offensive remarks.

Talk about snowflakes.
There have been many discussions where slurs and offensive remarks aren't said and the poster still ends of getting censored and banned. It's impossible to have a discussion with you people without someone getting butthurt and easily offended.
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by ford_truckin »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:08 pm
ford_truckin wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:37 pm
Blackthorne wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:52 am From the reading I've done and the few practicing Buddhists I know, I would gather that Buddhism leans to the right socially/politically, but online I see a lot 'hate' toward conservative points of view.

Does Buddhism require you to be a liberal?

Thanks
According to Dharmawheel, yes. Best not to express your views too openly if you happen to be a conservative. A pro-life, pro traditional marriage stance will get you banned fast even though you can find support for these viewpoints in Buddhist texts. Western Buddhism is very different from traditional Buddhism.
Actually, what gets you banned is certain ways of behaving, not certain views. It's not our fault that a portion (though by no means all) of the more vocal right wing users can't abide by the ToS.

Also there are plenty of fairly "liberal" traditional Buddhists. I hang out around Tibetans pretty regularly, they have some views that might be considered 'conservative' (euthanasia and abortion come to mind), but to a one they all seem to dislike Donald Trump and hold a number of views that I'm sure would qualify them as "libtards" in someone's eyes. So yeah, neither your political views nor mine have ownership over "traditional" Buddhism. As I mentioned, plenty of Asian "cultural conservatives" would not pass the insane test of what it takes to be conservative in Trumperica anyway.
I wasn't even talking about Trump. Talk about Trump Derangement Syndrome.
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

ford_truckin wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:58 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:08 pm
ford_truckin wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:37 pm
According to Dharmawheel, yes. Best not to express your views too openly if you happen to be a conservative. A pro-life, pro traditional marriage stance will get you banned fast even though you can find support for these viewpoints in Buddhist texts. Western Buddhism is very different from traditional Buddhism.
Actually, what gets you banned is certain ways of behaving, not certain views. It's not our fault that a portion (though by no means all) of the more vocal right wing users can't abide by the ToS.

Also there are plenty of fairly "liberal" traditional Buddhists. I hang out around Tibetans pretty regularly, they have some views that might be considered 'conservative' (euthanasia and abortion come to mind), but to a one they all seem to dislike Donald Trump and hold a number of views that I'm sure would qualify them as "libtards" in someone's eyes. So yeah, neither your political views nor mine have ownership over "traditional" Buddhism. As I mentioned, plenty of Asian "cultural conservatives" would not pass the insane test of what it takes to be conservative in Trumperica anyway.
I wasn't even talking about Trump. Talk about Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Don't talk to me that way.

I just mentioned Trump because it's a good litmus test.

It's not specifically so much about Trump, but how the notion of all traditional Buddhists all being the same as an American conservative is total nonsense, which it is. It makes me curious about your own extensive experiences with "traditional Buddhists", who your teacher is, on what authority your claims about Traditional vs. Western Buddhism rest.
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

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Honestly I don't see much difference. I was in the army when Obama started "the surge" and started vaporizing civvies with drones and 2000lb bombs. I'm pretty sure the vaporized children don't see much nuance either. One set of elites thinks making it is having a Ted Talk and the other thinks it's owning a fancy boat. You both suck and neither follow Buddhist principles.
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

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Nemo wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:15 am Honestly I don't see much difference. I was in the army when Obama started "the surge" and started vaporizing civvies with drones and 2000lb bombs. I'm pretty sure the vaporized children don't see much nuance either. One set of elites thinks making it is having a Ted Talk and the other thinks it's owning a fancy boat. You both suck and neither follow Buddhist principles.
This is true, but Trump has actually escalated Obama era policies on this stuff, who in turn escalated Bush II policies, etc. etc.

Its true Democrats are pretty good warmongers generally speaking, but the Republicans edge them out with somewhat more direct connections to the arms industry.
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Nemo »

It looks like old money thinking new money is uncouth. Obama committed the same crimes. He also arrogantly dismissed Trump publicly as a filthy peasant with money. The Trumpian perspective is the real elite is money. They seem to have a point and the properly educated and cultured whose hierarchies are being dismantled are losing their minds. It literally makes no difference to the bottom 50%. Life for them just gets harder every year. This is a skirmish between 2 factions of an utterly corrupt ruling class. I suspect if Bernie is blocked again Trump will be guaranteed a second term.
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

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Nemo wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:44 am It looks like old money thinking new money is uncouth. Obama committed the same crimes. He also arrogantly dismissed Trump publicly as a filthy peasant with money. The Trumpian perspective is the real elite is money. They seem to have a point and the properly educated and cultured whose hierarchies are being dismantled are losing their minds. It literally makes no difference to the bottom 50%. Life for them just gets harder every year. This is a skirmish between 2 factions of an utterly corrupt ruling class. I suspect if Bernie is blocked again Trump will be guaranteed a second term.
Sadly, I think your analysis is probably pretty accurate.
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Viach »

Blackthorne wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:52 am From the reading I've done and the few practicing Buddhists I know, I would gather that Buddhism leans to the right socially/politically, but online I see a lot 'hate' toward conservative points of view.

Does Buddhism require you to be a liberal?

Thanks
Buddhism is about how to break out of samsara, which is based on a wrong perception of reality. Politics [conservatives and liberals] is about how to settle in samsara comfortably. All we {as Buddhists} can do is choose the lesser evil in each case. By evil in Buddhism we mean everything that prevents the correct perception of reality {including political reality}. In politics, it is a lie that hinders the correct perception of social reality. Therefore, Buddhists should choose those politicians who lie less {distort reality} regardless of whether they are conservatives or liberals. (honesty is the best policy}
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by humble.student »

Simon E. wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:54 pm And who are these Tory eco warriors? The house magazine of Brit Conservatives is The Spectator and they are climate change deniers to a man..As is the current Home Secretary Priti Patel. No one actually knows what Boris really thinks about anything..
The late Roger Scruton wrote a book about environmentalism.
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by Simon E. »

The late Sir Roger Scruton was not a neocon.
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Re: Does Buddhism Require You To Be a Liberal?

Post by PeterC »

humble.student wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:45 am
Simon E. wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:54 pm And who are these Tory eco warriors? The house magazine of Brit Conservatives is The Spectator and they are climate change deniers to a man..As is the current Home Secretary Priti Patel. No one actually knows what Boris really thinks about anything..
The late Roger Scruton wrote a book about environmentalism.
He also took money from the tobacco industry to publish articles about how regulating smoking infringed on human rights. So I’m not sure I’ll be accepting his opinions at face value
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