What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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mikenz66
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:07 pm

justsit wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:38 pm
Nemo wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 2:42 pm
...As for China blowing it they arrested the whistleblower Dr who told the world about it and put him in unprotected quarantine till he died. They arrested 8 others that we know of for spreading hoaxes about what we now call COVID 19. They also destroyed the first samples of the virus on Jan 2.
Just curious - where did you get this information? As an RN I'm interested in original sources.

Also, who is "we" in your phrase "that we know of"?
Seems to be common knowledge/rumour on Chinese social media, judging from my WeChat "Moments" and comments by Chinese students and friends...

:heart:
Mike

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Dan74
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Dan74 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:37 pm

Italy’s Elderly Suffer Heavy Toll as Coronavirus Spreads
Spikes in the numbers of deaths and cases have become the new normal in the country with Europe’s oldest population.



Jason Horowitz
By Jason Horowitz
March 5, 2020

MILAN — A table of old men were shooting the breeze next to the bocce ball courts in a Milan recreation center on Wednesday, talking, like seemingly everyone else in northern Italy, about the coronavirus outbreak that had shut down towns, closed all of Italy’s schools and claimed the lives of more than 100 people, almost all of them elderly.

The men, mostly in their 70s and 80s, joked that their wives gave them a hard time for leaving the house (“not even the coronavirus can keep this guy home”), that life’s finish line was too close to get worked up about a contagion, that they had faith in northern Italy’s vaunted health care system.

But the bravado also disguised real concern.

“It’s normal that I’m a little worried,” Antonio Di Furia, the club’s owner, 67, said. “I have heart problems.”


Italy’s mortality rate in the outbreak, about 3.5 percent, is not much above the global average of 3.4 percent reported by the World Health Organization. But the virus is taking a disproportionate toll on the elderly in Italy, which has the oldest population in Europe, and the second-oldest in the world after Japan.


The number of coronavirus cases and deaths spiked again on Wednesday in Italy, which has reported 3,089 people infected and 107 deaths over all. Daily jumps have become the new normal.

The increases reflect what is known about the contagion, in which each person is thought to infect about two others. That means that even as Italy locks down towns — two more were added on Wednesday, bringing the total to 13 — the virus continues to spread.

Italy’s measures have slowed the spread, but not enough to allay concerns about the burdens the virus is placing on the health care system and the threat it poses, especially to older people.

“The measures introduced in these days have the aim of avoiding a large epidemic wave,” Italy’s National Health Institute said in a statement explaining its stiffening guidelines, which recommend personal separation as schools closed nationwide until at least March 15.

“In the case of the coronavirus we must take into account, moreover, that Italy has an elderly population, actually much older than the Chinese, and needs to be protected from the contagious,” it said.

Get an informed guide to the global outbreak with our daily coronavirus newsletter.

About 23 percent of Italy’s population is 65 or older. The median age is 47.3, compared to 38.3 in the United States, according to the United Nations.

Many of those who have died in Italy already suffered from serious illnesses that put them in grave danger, then the virus “destabilized them,” said Walter Ricciardi, an official at the World Health Organization who is advising the Italian health ministry.

The array of pre-existing conditions suffered by some victims, including cancer, diabetes and heart disease, has complicated efforts to assess the lethality of the virus.

Angelo Borrelli, the head of Italy’s Civil Protection Agency who is coordinating the country’s response to the crisis, said Tuesday that of the people who died, “Most were over 70, and some had pre-existing conditions.’’

‘‘But for the others,’’ he said, ‘‘we still aren’t sure.”

Lombardy’s president, Attilio Fontana, made a similar point in an interview last week. “All the deaths we’ve had are either very old people or very sick people,” he said.

The World Health Organization said that the case-fatality ratio was highly fluid and likely to change. Infections have probably been underreported, it said, given that many are asymptomatic or very mild.

Some experts argued that the aggressive response by Italy’s northern regions had not only slowed the spread of the virus but had also brought down the death rate.

“There was a huge expansion of the intensive care units,” said Fausto Baldanti, a virologist at the San Matteo Hospital in Pavia. “That can make the difference.”

But the intense focus on the coronavirus in Italy is exacting a cost.

Last week, an old man lost his balance and fell on a sidewalk in Casalpusterlengo, one of the northern towns quarantined to prevent the spread of the coronavirus. A neighbor, Noemi Carelli, called an ambulance, but said the usual emergency hotline automatically diverted to a recorded message about the outbreak.

As the old man bled from his face on the street, she kept trying and finally reached the police, who dispatched an ambulance from a town miles away. “We have to hope that nothing else happens to us besides the coronavirus,” said Ms. Carelli, 45.

The spread of the virus and the abundance of elderly patients have worried experts, many of whom are concerned that the outbreak threatens to monopolize the attention and resources of Italy’s public health system.

In the north, many hospitals have suspended all but the most urgent surgeries in order to free medical beds and other resources for acute coronavirus cases. Staff have canceled vacations and put in overtime.

Lombardy’s president, Attilio Fontana, said that the region is asking retired doctors and nurses to return to work. In Padova, the hospital pitched tents outside in preparation for an influx of cases. And on Wednesday, Italy’s government set aside a space for patients with the virus inside a military hospital.

Raffaele Bruno, director of the infectious disease unit at San Matteo, said that a sudden burst in the number of cases would put an unsustainable strain on operations in the north. “If I have to admit 10 percent of them in the hospital and 2 percent goes to intensive care, I don’t have any more spots to take care of other patients who have other illnesses,” he said.

Speaking on Radio1, Alessandro Vergallo, the president of the national association of anesthetists, said that in Lombardy, “we can count the free spots in the hospitals on the fingers of two hands.” The health system can’t long survive under such conditions, he said.

Around Lombardy, elderly Italians expressed a mix of caution, fatalism and nonchalance.

While the men in the bocce club shrugged off the threat, they did so next to empty courts and empty tables. Most of their friends had stayed away.

“I think they’re scared,” said Annalisa Canato, 67, who sat by the bar. “For good reason.”

In Secugnago, a few hundred yards outside a checkpoint blocking the entrance to one of Italy’s locked-down towns, old men shrugged off the threat and said they often drank with friends who slipped out of the quarantined towns via country roads.

“If it comes here and gets me, it gets me,” said Domenico Coppini, 79, as he stood outside the Liberty Bar in Secugnago. “Italy is old. And the virus is getting old people.”

In Milan, others were more cautious.

Lucia Franceschini, 84, shopped for vegetables at a market and said it was important not to be “excessively worried” but to keep up normal routines and good hygiene and to maintain “the appropriate distance” when talking to people.

Still, she had not failed to notice that the vast majority of Italians who died were elderly.

“You become fragile,” she said, and lamented that Italy was “maybe more vulnerable.”

“We’re all little old people now,” she said.

Emma Bubola contributed reporting from Milan.

Norwegian
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Norwegian » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:38 pm

In Italy, there were 133 COVID-19 related deaths in just one day, from Saturday to Sunday.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
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justsit
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by justsit » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:40 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:07 pm
justsit wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:38 pm
...
Seems to be common knowledge/rumour on Chinese social media, judging from my WeChat "Moments" and comments by Chinese students and friends...
Ah, thanks, I'm not on any social media, so I missed that.

narhwal90
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by narhwal90 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:51 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:38 pm
In Italy, there were 133 COVID-19 related deaths in just one day, from Saturday to Sunday.
In the US, approx 100 people die per day in traffic accidents on average, about 3000 every month, 12 months out of the year; last year the death toll was 38k, 2018 was 39k- the good news is a slight downward trend over the last few years.

smcj
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by smcj » Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:03 pm

If the situation stabilized at the current level the problem would be small.

Try taking some conservative numbers and extrapolate out 4 months, then 8, then 12, and then 16.

Keep in mind the people most in actual danger are the old and the unhealthy. If you know someone like that you should be concerned for their sake.

The silver lining in all this is that statistically children seem to NOT be targets for the virus.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:15 pm

Just to bring a bit of positivity to the thread (and common sense to the world), here's an Aussie push-back against irrational scare-mongering.
#IWillEatWithYou
Right now, much loved family businesses and restaurants across the country are going under.

As misinformation about Coronavirus spreads across social media, local Chinese restaurants and stores are paying the price - with some losing up to 50% of their revenue.1

That's not because of doctor's orders OR common sense, it's because of fear.2

While other restaurants and public spaces are still buzzing, it is the Chinatown restaurants and Asian grocers that stand empty. Panic around the virus is unfairly impacting Chinese and Asian communities.

If we don't take action – people will lose their jobs, and their livelihoods.

Can you take the pledge to defeat baseless fears and support these businesses in their time of need?

At a time when so many things seem outside our control, YOUR simple decision about dinner can have profound impacts - so take the step and pledge #IWillEatWithYou.
https://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/raci ... eatwithyou

Hint: you don't have to be an Aussie to join the campaign. :smile:

:namaste:
Kim

mikenz66
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:53 am

Students everywhere are creative...


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rory
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by rory » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:21 am

I have students in Wuhan, which is why I'm so prepared. My Chinese friends from the PRC in the US are being cautious too.

Here is the live Johns Hopkins map that covers worldwide cases of COVID-19 in real time:
https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps ... b48e9ecf6
look at Singapore and Hong Kong: the numbers are so low - because the population took it upon themselves to self-quarantine, use masks, hand-wash as much as possible.

Watch the US numbers - a couple of days ago they were in the one hundreds

A car crash is a discrete event; one car crashes into the other. Someone gets hurt. That's it.
COVID-19: 1 person infects 2 others, who infects 2 others, who infects 2 others. That's exponential growth!

If you want to support a restaurant, call them and order take-out and pay the full restaurant price + tip.

If you feel you are only 1 person, create local groups all over https://www.endcoronavirus.org/
this was started by physicist Yaneer Bar-Yam, who head an institute dealing with complex systems.
here is his FAQ:
Why are people so afraid of this outbreak, isn't it just like the normal flu?

The Coronavirus causes about 20% severe cases and 2% deaths. This is about 20 times higher than the flu. A typical incubation period is 3 days but it may extend to 14 days, and reports exist of 24 and 27 days. It is highly contagious with an increase from day to day of 50% in new cases (infection rate R0 of about 3-4) unless extraordinary interventions are made.
Won't the outbreak happen no matter what we do?

If we reduce contact between people the rate of infection will decrease. By isolating those who are sick or are likely to become sick because of contacts they have had we can reduce the rate of new cases. When there are many cases, this is not enough. It is possible to stop the outbreak by "locking down" communities where there are multiple cases. If everyone stays at home for the incubation period the number of new cases is dramatically smaller. This has been done in China, South Korea and Italy. China managed to stop and reverse the growth in cases, and they are near eliminating all the cases across China. South Korea and Italy are still working to refine their interventions to achieve the same outcome.


https://www.endcoronavirus.org/faq
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:01 am

rory wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:21 am
Won't the outbreak happen no matter what we do?

If we reduce contact between people the rate of infection will decrease. By isolating those who are sick or are likely to become sick because of contacts they have had we can reduce the rate of new cases. When there are many cases, this is not enough. It is possible to stop the outbreak by "locking down" communities where there are multiple cases. If everyone stays at home for the incubation period the number of new cases is dramatically smaller. This has been done in China, South Korea and Italy. China managed to stop and reverse the growth in cases, and they are near eliminating all the cases across China. South Korea and Italy are still working to refine their interventions to achieve the same outcome.


https://www.endcoronavirus.org/faq
gassho
Rory
FACT!

:namaste:
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:17 am

Most of my sangha is 60+, we talked today about moving some things to Zoom. We are so small, but with the typical age range it just seems like it may be a good idea.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:27 am

smcj wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:03 pm
If the situation stabilized at the current level the problem would be small.

Try taking some conservative numbers and extrapolate out 4 months, then 8, then 12, and then 16.

Keep in mind the people most in actual danger are the old and the unhealthy. If you know someone like that you should be concerned for their sake.

The silver lining in all this is that statistically children seem to NOT be targets for the virus.
What percentage of the population can conceivably have the disease though, at what point does growth level out?
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:29 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:17 am
Most of my sangha is 60+, we talked today about moving some things to Zoom. We are so small, but with the typical age range it just seems like it may be a good idea.
Since even Garchen Institute closed down for the time being, I believe this is a good idea. Just to be safe at least. These small local sanghas are extremely precious, but also fragile.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

smcj
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by smcj » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:00 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:27 am
smcj wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:03 pm
If the situation stabilized at the current level the problem would be small.

Try taking some conservative numbers and extrapolate out 4 months, then 8, then 12, and then 16.

Keep in mind the people most in actual danger are the old and the unhealthy. If you know someone like that you should be concerned for their sake.

The silver lining in all this is that statistically children seem to NOT be targets for the virus.
What percentage of the population can conceivably have the disease though, at what point does growth level out?
36 million Americans have had the flu this year even with a flu vaccine and some herd immunity. So the prospects for Covid 19 are much higher than that. Right?

As a hypothetical try using a case fatality rate that ranges from 1% (low est.) to 3.4% (high est) @36 million, 72 million, and 100 million. You can try higher infected rates too if you like. There’s no herd immunity to this one.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Nemo
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Nemo » Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:15 pm

smcj wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:00 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:27 am
smcj wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:03 pm
If the situation stabilized at the current level the problem would be small.

Try taking some conservative numbers and extrapolate out 4 months, then 8, then 12, and then 16.

Keep in mind the people most in actual danger are the old and the unhealthy. If you know someone like that you should be concerned for their sake.

The silver lining in all this is that statistically children seem to NOT be targets for the virus.
What percentage of the population can conceivably have the disease though, at what point does growth level out?
36 million Americans have had the flu this year even with a flu vaccine and some herd immunity. So the prospects for Covid 19 are much higher than that. Right?

As a hypothetical try using a case fatality rate that ranges from 1% (low est.) to 3.4% (high est) @36 million, 72 million, and 100 million. You can try higher infected rates too if you like. There’s no herd immunity to this one.
Preliminary numbers out of Japan are 14% do not develop immunity on a first infection. Since it infects through immune cells the second infection is transported throughout your body immediately. Generally in the past with pneumonia you had a good chance of becoming immune on your second go round but that may be overly hopeful. I don't think anyone wants to hear the other probable scenarios. This vastly complicates herd immunity calculations.

smcj
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by smcj » Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:41 pm

Any hypothetical you use makes clear this is not the flu.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

muni
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by muni » Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:53 pm

Everywhere in the world are scientists working on a possible medicine what can stop the grow of the virus. Belgium, Leuven is starting with 15000 possible useful molecules coming from California. They can work nonstop, 24 hours on 24 because robots are doing the job. In that way, probably in a few weeks there can be result. At least lets hope for the elderly and chronical sick.

There is meanwhile a lack of masks everywhere, which are very necessary for the paramedical teams taking the tests. Some made themselves masks. Perhaps we can do that too. Anyone of you made masks?

What material can give protection?
Last edited by muni on Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it.

Only if you have developed the love and compassion of relative bodhichitta can absolute bodhichitta – the very essence of the Great Perfection and the Great Seal – ever take birth in your being. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:59 pm

Actually it’s not clear whether the advantages of wearing masks outweigh the disadvantages. The latest research indicates a small degree of extra protection which is largely or completely outweighed by a false sense of security concerning the degree of such protection conferred, leading to careless hygiene.
.
.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

muni
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by muni » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:06 pm

Yes, you are right.
I am asking for the paramedical and medical teams, who are testing, not for people in the street. Doctors are asking those of construction workers. These are also limited.

I was wondering somewhere people already helped regarding this shortage.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it.

Only if you have developed the love and compassion of relative bodhichitta can absolute bodhichitta – the very essence of the Great Perfection and the Great Seal – ever take birth in your being. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

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Nemo
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Nemo » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:29 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:59 pm
Actually it’s not clear whether the advantages of wearing masks outweigh the disadvantages. The latest research indicates a small degree of extra protection which is largely or completely outweighed by a false sense of security concerning the degree of such protection conferred, leading to careless hygiene.
So you make people watch a 4 minute instructional video. HK has literally wiped out ALL resp illness in the territory. This is possible in the real world.
Image

One small hospital I worked for still had the old school pandemic warehouse. A 3 month worst case scenario off site storage facility. Even the warehouse workers were well trained enough that they wouldn't tell a soul where it was located. If people don't get upset and hold their leaders to account we will be unprepared for the next pandemic as well. Negligence is not an accident.

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