What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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Wayfarer
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Wayfarer » Sun May 24, 2020 5:58 am

another vital point is that the Interent, purely by the nature of the medium, has completely changed the cultural dynamics. Whereas published newspapers had editorial oversight and responsibility for their content, Internet platforms like Facebook routinely deny any responsibility for what they allow to be published (although that has started to change after considerable public and political pressure). But the Internet makes it possible for anyone to publish anything, without having to go to the trouble of actually producing a piece of written material which in turn requires equipment, offices and so on. There's nobody to sue, and no complaints department. So while the internet is on the one hand a fantastic information resource it's also an infinite bullshit amplifier, where the most ridiculous memes can develop a life of their own and proliferate wildly with no oversight or control.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

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PeterC
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by PeterC » Sun May 24, 2020 7:42 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:58 am
...Internet platforms like Facebook routinely deny any responsibility for what they allow to be published (although that has started to change after considerable public and political pressure).
The change of direction on this has just begun, and it’s going to take a few years, but it’s going to be severe. Basically these companies took the already weak US legal position (after the abandonment of the fairness doctrine), eviscerated it a little further with the communications decency act, proceeded to ignore any de minimus regulations left, then applied that as a model globally. While I hold little hope for the US returning to a rational model of media regulation (or even a rational model for the media industry), that’s not the case for other countries who have had enough of facebook’s bullshit and are going to regulate them properly.

That ensures bad information can be restrained. Unfortunately it doesn’t ensure that good information is published, since that requires people to pay for it, and apparently society is no longer willing to do so.
But the Internet makes it possible for anyone to publish anything, without having to go to the trouble of actually producing a piece of written material which in turn requires equipment, offices and so on.
There’s a lot that can be done to stop people like brietbart, infowars etc. The quickest way is for rich liberals to fund ruinous defamation lawsuits against them (like Peter Theil did with Gawker, though Theil is not one of the good guys on this issue). The problem is that disinformation is, for the political right, ridiculously cheap. It could be made much more expensive.

Danny
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Danny » Sun May 24, 2020 1:08 pm

PeterC wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:42 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:58 am
...Internet platforms like Facebook routinely deny any responsibility for what they allow to be published (although that has started to change after considerable public and political pressure).
The change of direction on this has just begun, and it’s going to take a few years, but it’s going to be severe. Basically these companies took the already weak US legal position (after the abandonment of the fairness doctrine), eviscerated it a little further with the communications decency act, proceeded to ignore any de minimus regulations left, then applied that as a model globally. While I hold little hope for the US returning to a rational model of media regulation (or even a rational model for the media industry), that’s not the case for other countries who have had enough of facebook’s bullshit and are going to regulate them properly.

That ensures bad information can be restrained. Unfortunately it doesn’t ensure that good information is published, since that requires people to pay for it, and apparently society is no longer willing to do so.
But the Internet makes it possible for anyone to publish anything, without having to go to the trouble of actually producing a piece of written material which in turn requires equipment, offices and so on.
There’s a lot that can be done to stop people like brietbart, infowars etc. The quickest way is for rich liberals to fund ruinous defamation lawsuits against them (like Peter Theil did with Gawker, though Theil is not one of the good guys on this issue). The problem is that disinformation is, for the political right, ridiculously cheap. It could be made much more expensive.
Media is a public utility, a public commons for free expression of ideas, the market place picks the winners and losers. Libel and defamation laws are already in place and work just fine, if of course you can afford the access to the courts.
Freedom of expression is free, because the alternative is too costly. Take Hong Kong protests or the Egyptian green revolution as recent examples. Social media played important role in those, one was approved, the other was not. Both were public expressions of change. One was encouraged the other was a censorship nightmare.
Extinction rebellion was also media and social media driven. One side was social media approved but it played out badly in the larger media.
And I mentioned not getting locked into information ghettos. These are examples in recent memory of public discourse using media platforms with various results, because discussion in the public domain remained free.
Covid 19 pandemic reporting was controlled and all manners of bad information thrived. It's a hot mess, but is a massive learning curve and highlights the flaws of our current dilemmas and a stress test of our systems.

Regards

Danny
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Danny » Sun May 24, 2020 1:38 pm

I'm much more optimistic about the alternative future, trying to re heat Marxism as a post modernist movement is not dangerous or edgy enough for the future. It died in the 1960's, sorry kids but that's a reality.

Regards

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PeterC
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by PeterC » Sun May 24, 2020 1:56 pm

Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 1:08 pm
Media is a public utility, a public commons for free expression of ideas, the market place picks the winners and losers. Libel and defamation laws are already in place and work just fine, if of course you can afford the access to the courts.
I’m not sure here - are you being sarcastic, trolling, or genuinely don’t know what you’re talking about?

Bundokji
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Bundokji » Sun May 24, 2020 2:13 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:58 am
So while the internet is on the one hand a fantastic information resource it's also an infinite bullshit amplifier, where the most ridiculous memes can develop a life of their own and proliferate wildly with no oversight or control.
Hopefully, this could become a cause for more individuals to train on how to separate the wheat from the chaff. The emphasis of populists (whether directly or indirectly) that traditional journalism have always been hiring out opinions, while have some validity to it, seem to have misled many to conclude that all opinions are of equal validity. Technology provided a platform for individuals to share their opinions, and the stronger sense of individualism seem to have held validity hostage to the ability to impress.

Unless values are directed towards what is wholesome, information will continue to be tools for satisfying more base desires. Those who are driven by what is wholesome have always been a few anyway and will continue to be so.
The cleverest defenders of faith are its greatest enemies: for their subtleties engender doubt and stimulate the mind. -- Will Durant

Danny
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Danny » Sun May 24, 2020 2:19 pm

PeterC wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 1:56 pm
Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 1:08 pm
Media is a public utility, a public commons for free expression of ideas, the market place picks the winners and losers. Libel and defamation laws are already in place and work just fine, if of course you can afford the access to the courts.
I’m not sure here - are you being sarcastic, trolling, or genuinely don’t know what you’re talking about?
You decide, pick one and convince yourself that's what my intentions are. I don't care.

Regards

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Dan74
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Dan74 » Sun May 24, 2020 2:25 pm

Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 1:08 pm
PeterC wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:42 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 5:58 am
...Internet platforms like Facebook routinely deny any responsibility for what they allow to be published (although that has started to change after considerable public and political pressure).
The change of direction on this has just begun, and it’s going to take a few years, but it’s going to be severe. Basically these companies took the already weak US legal position (after the abandonment of the fairness doctrine), eviscerated it a little further with the communications decency act, proceeded to ignore any de minimus regulations left, then applied that as a model globally. While I hold little hope for the US returning to a rational model of media regulation (or even a rational model for the media industry), that’s not the case for other countries who have had enough of facebook’s bullshit and are going to regulate them properly.

That ensures bad information can be restrained. Unfortunately it doesn’t ensure that good information is published, since that requires people to pay for it, and apparently society is no longer willing to do so.
But the Internet makes it possible for anyone to publish anything, without having to go to the trouble of actually producing a piece of written material which in turn requires equipment, offices and so on.
There’s a lot that can be done to stop people like brietbart, infowars etc. The quickest way is for rich liberals to fund ruinous defamation lawsuits against them (like Peter Theil did with Gawker, though Theil is not one of the good guys on this issue). The problem is that disinformation is, for the political right, ridiculously cheap. It could be made much more expensive.
Media is a public utility, a public commons for free expression of ideas, the market place picks the winners and losers. Libel and defamation laws are already in place and work just fine, if of course you can afford the access to the courts.
Freedom of expression is free, because the alternative is too costly. Take Hong Kong protests or the Egyptian green revolution as recent examples. Social media played important role in those, one was approved, the other was not. Both were public expressions of change. One was encouraged the other was a censorship nightmare.
Extinction rebellion was also media and social media driven. One side was social media approved but it played out badly in the larger media.
And I mentioned not getting locked into information ghettos. These are examples in recent memory of public discourse using media platforms with various results, because discussion in the public domain remained free.
Covid 19 pandemic reporting was controlled and all manners of bad information thrived. It's a hot mess, but is a massive learning curve and highlights the flaws of our current dilemmas and a stress test of our systems.

Regards
I am not sure what you're trying to say either..

Are you insinuating that all these were orchestrated? The Arab Spring, Extinction Rebellion, etc?? Kinda sounds like you are suggesting one big conspiracy or manipulation. Is that what you are saying? I think I am not particularly thick but it sounds too oblique for me to interpret.

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PeterC
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by PeterC » Sun May 24, 2020 2:40 pm

Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 2:19 pm
PeterC wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 1:56 pm
Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 1:08 pm
Media is a public utility, a public commons for free expression of ideas, the market place picks the winners and losers. Libel and defamation laws are already in place and work just fine, if of course you can afford the access to the courts.
I’m not sure here - are you being sarcastic, trolling, or genuinely don’t know what you’re talking about?
You decide, pick one and convince yourself that's what my intentions are. I don't care.

Regards
Whatever your intentions are, they don’t seem to include explaining what you mean

Danny
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Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Danny » Sun May 24, 2020 6:01 pm

All media views human activity as an entertainment to be sold. It views everything as a commodity, Including social change movements and culture.

Regards

Malcolm
Posts: 31697
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 24, 2020 6:45 pm

Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:01 pm
All media views human activity as an entertainment to be sold. It views everything as a commodity, Including social change movements and culture.

Regards
Including crayons and pastels? What about oil paint? Latex? Acrylic?

Danny
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Danny » Sun May 24, 2020 6:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:45 pm
Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:01 pm
All media views human activity as an entertainment to be sold. It views everything as a commodity, Including social change movements and culture.

Regards
Including crayons and pastels? What about oil paint? Latex? Acrylic?
Art as a medium is also a commodity, someone famously said all art is propaganda.

Regards

Malcolm
Posts: 31697
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 24, 2020 7:16 pm

Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:56 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:45 pm
Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:01 pm
All media views human activity as an entertainment to be sold. It views everything as a commodity, Including social change movements and culture.

Regards
Including crayons and pastels? What about oil paint? Latex? Acrylic?
Art as a medium is also a commodity, someone famously said all art is propaganda.

Regards
Art is only a commodity if it is sold as such. There is plenty of art that is not commodified.

Propaganda isn't art.

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PeterC
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by PeterC » Mon May 25, 2020 5:01 am

Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:56 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:45 pm
Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:01 pm
All media views human activity as an entertainment to be sold. It views everything as a commodity, Including social change movements and culture.

Regards
Including crayons and pastels? What about oil paint? Latex? Acrylic?
Art as a medium is also a commodity, someone famously said all art is propaganda.

Regards
Someone else famously said history is bunk. Another person allegedly said that writing about music is like dancing about architecture, which I rather like btw. But that's the problem with profound-sounding slogans - all they really do is sound profound.

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Dan74
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Dan74 » Mon May 25, 2020 6:53 am

Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:01 pm
All media views human activity as an entertainment to be sold. It views everything as a commodity, Including social change movements and culture.

Regards
Yes, that's the nature of our system and especially in the current cutthroat media climate, where it becomes increasingly difficult to sell a story on the basis of good journalism.

Danny
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Danny » Mon May 25, 2020 1:19 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 6:53 am
Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:01 pm
All media views human activity as an entertainment to be sold. It views everything as a commodity, Including social change movements and culture.

Regards
Yes, that's the nature of our system and especially in the current cutthroat media climate, where it becomes increasingly difficult to sell a story on the basis of good journalism.
Yeah Dan, so what do we do about it?
Here's food for thought, in the US they want to push through $3 trillion in stimulus, media is only reporting on the political maneuvering, no one is reporting that it's one of the biggest transfer of wealth heists in history and what it actually means for working people and the poor!
Amazing.

Regards

Tiago Simões
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Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Tiago Simões » Mon May 25, 2020 1:57 pm

Danny wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:19 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 6:53 am
Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:01 pm
All media views human activity as an entertainment to be sold. It views everything as a commodity, Including social change movements and culture.

Regards
Yes, that's the nature of our system and especially in the current cutthroat media climate, where it becomes increasingly difficult to sell a story on the basis of good journalism.
Yeah Dan, so what do we do about it?
Here's food for thought, in the US they want to push through $3 trillion in stimulus, media is only reporting on the political maneuvering, no one is reporting that it's one of the biggest transfer of wealth heists in history and what it actually means for working people and the poor!
Amazing.

Regards
As the US government (democrats or republicans) said anything during this pandemic about cutting the military budget?

I am honestly curious, since I don't follow american news.

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Dan74
Former staff member
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Location: Switzerland

Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Dan74 » Mon May 25, 2020 2:07 pm

Danny wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:19 pm
Dan74 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 6:53 am
Danny wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:01 pm
All media views human activity as an entertainment to be sold. It views everything as a commodity, Including social change movements and culture.

Regards
Yes, that's the nature of our system and especially in the current cutthroat media climate, where it becomes increasingly difficult to sell a story on the basis of good journalism.
Yeah Dan, so what do we do about it?
Here's food for thought, in the US they want to push through $3 trillion in stimulus, media is only reporting on the political maneuvering, no one is reporting that it's one of the biggest transfer of wealth heists in history and what it actually means for working people and the poor!
Amazing.

Regards
I am not American and don't follow your events that closely, but I asked a friend who is left-leaning and works in the financial industry in PA, on the mathematical side of things (he has a PhD in Pure maths from Rutgers) and he said the following:
The stimulus package in the US isn't bailing out banks (who aren't really in trouble right now) , the bailouts are directed to other businesses like airlines (who are in a lot of trouble and it's because they run on thin margins, not because they take on a huge amount of risk) They aren't to my knowledge bailing out the banks like they did in 2008 (e.g. in 2008 they used capital injections , asset purchases and making whole derivatives counterparties in addition to less succesful loan modication programs for borrowers) though they did dramatically cut interest rates (which seems not to have helped much)
So the bailouts, as I understand them, is to keep the US economy going and stop the unemployment from skyrocketing. Economists may disagree exactly how and how much, but it seems to me there is an overall consensus that they are necessary.

When you say, it's a 'heist', what is your justification for that exactly?

Danny
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:43 pm

Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Danny » Mon May 25, 2020 2:49 pm

Because when you actually dig down into the numbers, whilst as a quick defibrillator shock to bump start Economy, the tax rates when settled down actually benefit the rich and the poor will be left with 90% of all tax revenue collections to repay the stimulus when the dust has settled.
Plus any small business owners out there will tell you they want government ou of their way and not an expanded plan to increase them as your silent partner.

Regards

Malcolm
Posts: 31697
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: What are you doing about the coronavirus?

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 25, 2020 4:46 pm

Danny wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 2:49 pm

Plus any small business owners out there will tell you they want government ou of their way and not an expanded plan to increase them as your silent partner.
Yes, because small businesses hate roads, bridges, electricity, telephones, and the US Post Office. :roll:

This anti-government rhetoric is extremely harmful. Reagan lead directly to Trump.

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