Is there such a thing as beings that lack all 5 aggregates?

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Coëmgenu
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Is there such a thing as beings that lack all 5 aggregates?

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Admin_PC wrote:That's my understanding, yes - with the caveat that he is also identified with the 5 Skandhas.
Are devāḥ considered, traditionally, to lack the 5 aggregates? Is there such a thing as a being with no aggregates?
No. Even formless realm devas have two of the four mental aggregates, formations and consciousness.
I am posting this question here as a general inquiry. My intent is not to "question/be skeptical" of the claim above, I seek only clarification.

In all Buddhist traditions, are devāḥ considered, universally, in the Buddhavacana, to only have 2 of the 5 "human/sentient?" aggregates?

If devāḥ lack the 5 aggregates, what are the five aggregates, are they only the aggregates of human/"human-realm" beings? Do hell-dwellers have all 5 aggregates?

Is there a level of karmic attainment where someone is not "burdened" with 5 aggregates? Does having "all 5" aggregates "help" someone realize the Buddhadharma? Is being born a "human" a "higher birth" than being born a deva, with "higher birth" meaning "a birth that is more conducive to practicing Buddhadharma"? Many Buddhist cosmologies count being "born human" as the most beneficent birth for pursuing Buddhadharma, are they wrong?
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Re: Is there such a thing as beings to lack all 5 aggregates?

Post by Admin_PC » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:09 am

The five aggregates go from more coarse, to more refined:
Material Form (rūpa)
Feelings (vedanā)
Perception (saññā)
Mental Formations (saṅkhāra)
Consciousness (viññāṇa)

Humans and rebirths below would have all 5 - though the lower the rebirth, the more limited the refined aggregates.
Rebirths above have fewer, focusing on only the more refined aggregates.
Buddhas are unbound by the the 5 aggregates and parinirvana is freedom from them.

Human birth is precious because it is rare, higher rebirths rarer still.
It is conducive to Dharma practice because it has the best mix of suffering and bliss.
A rebirth too low and the refined aggregates are too limited to comprehend Dharma.
A rebirth too high and the distractions of pleasures are too great to want to escape Samsara.

At least these are the explanations I've been given, I'm not sure I could point you to a sutra reference for each item.
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Malcolm
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Re: Is there such a thing as beings that lack all 5 aggregates?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:04 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Are devāḥ considered, traditionally, to lack the 5 aggregates? Is there such a thing as a being with no aggregates?
No. Even formless realm devas have two of the four mental aggregates, formations and consciousness.
I am posting this question here as a general inquiry. My intent is not to "question/be skeptical" of the claim above, I seek only clarification.

In all Buddhist traditions, are devāḥ considered, universally, in the Buddhavacana, to only have 2 of the 5 "human/sentient?" aggregates?

If devāḥ lack the 5 aggregates, what are the five aggregates, are they only the aggregates of human/"human-realm" beings? Do hell-dwellers have all 5 aggregates?

Is there a level of karmic attainment where someone is not "burdened" with 5 aggregates? Does having "all 5" aggregates "help" someone realize the Buddhadharma? Is being born a "human" a "higher birth" than being born a deva, with "higher birth" meaning "a birth that is more conducive to practicing Buddhadharma"? Many Buddhist cosmologies count being "born human" as the most beneficent birth for pursuing Buddhadharma, are they wrong?
Most devas have five aggregates. Formless realm devas do not.

You would save yourself a lot of time if you would read the Abhidharmakośabhaṣyaṃ by Vasubandhu. It is like a map to the world of Dharma.
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Re: Is there such a thing as beings that lack all 5 aggregates?

Post by White Lotus » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:37 pm

When the six sensory consciousnesses cease: emptiness/form ceases and then the five aggregates are no longer seen nor not seen. Experienced or not experienced. There can still be discomfort in this state. Rgds, Tom. :namaste:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: Is there such a thing as beings that lack all 5 aggregates?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:52 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:Is there a level of karmic attainment where someone is not "burdened" with 5 aggregates?
Unconditioned things are not named with respect to the skandhas, because they do not correspond to the concept ...

Furthermore ... the expression skandha designates the totality of that which is the cause of defilement (impure conditioned things) as well as the cause of purification (pure conditioned things: the Path). Thus unconditioned things, which are neither the cause of defilement, nor the cause of purification, cannot be placed ... among ... the skandhas.

According to one opinion, the same way that the end of a jug is not a jug, in this same way unconditioned things, which are the end or cessation of the skandhas, are not skandhas.

Malcolm wrote:... Abhidharmakośabhaṣyaṃ by Vasubandhu ...
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Re: Is there such a thing as beings that lack all 5 aggregates?

Post by White Lotus » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:15 pm

All things have been and are unconditioned from the very beginning. There is only the appearance of conditioning. Thats from the perspective of emptiness. Going beyond emptiness: all things (?) are neither conditioned nor unconditioned. Neither dependent nor independent. Emptiness of emptiness. Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: Is there such a thing as beings that lack all 5 aggregates?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:11 pm

White Lotus wrote:All things have been and are unconditioned from the very beginning. There is only the appearance of conditioning. Thats from the perspective of emptiness. Going beyond emptiness: all things (?) are neither conditioned nor unconditioned. Neither dependent nor independent. Emptiness of emptiness. Tom.
You are philosophically/intellectually trapped in the fourth extreme.
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Re: Is there such a thing as beings that lack all 5 aggregates?

Post by White Lotus » Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:03 pm

Yes Grigoris, but, to be averse to the four propositions and 100 negations is to be attached to emptiness. To say "neither emptiness nor form" is to become unenlightened. Its the next step. :D
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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