Is Māra a deva?

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odysseus
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby odysseus » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:11 am

Grigoris wrote:
odysseus wrote:I believe Mara comes from the subconscious, but many would not agree with me. Mara is subconscious vibrations who come from others that starts subconscious processes within oneself.
What do you mean by the term "subconscious"?


The part of consciousness which is invisible and works independently of the conscious.
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby Grigoris » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:35 am

odysseus wrote:The part of consciousness which is invisible and works independently of the conscious.
Is it independent of consciousness, or is it part of consciousness? It can't be both.

Are you sure it is "invisible", or is it just so fast and/or subtle that you are incapable of noticing it?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby odysseus » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:48 am

Grigoris wrote:
odysseus wrote:The part of consciousness which is invisible and works independently of the conscious.
Is it independent of consciousness, or is it part of consciousness? It can't be both.


Well, it works in conjunction with the consciousness.

Grigoris wrote:Are you sure it is "invisible", or is it just so fast and/or subtle that you are incapable of noticing it?


Maybe it's fast, but Mara is invisible. It's very subtle. Even if Mara in essence is invisible, he can manifest in different forms or visions.
It's not so difficult to be a good person, but to be genuinely kind takes courage because it can be downright dangerous.

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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby Grigoris » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:13 am

So where does this "subconscious" fit into the Abhidharma schema? In the 5 skhanda model? In the eight consciousness model?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby odysseus » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:41 am

Grigoris wrote:So where does this "subconscious" fit into the Abhidharma schema? In the 5 skhanda model? In the eight consciousness model?


I guess it would fit in with the karmic level of consciousness. Or else I'm not so sure where it fits. But I believe there exists a subconscious that is compatible with Buddhism.
It's not so difficult to be a good person, but to be genuinely kind takes courage because it can be downright dangerous.

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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby muni » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:56 am

Ego/self is not existing we learn, and still there is so much suffering and harm!
For oneself reflecting about all the pain we went through in this life, then to see its’ cause is the most due to that belief in a grasped conceptual thought, and then the habitual concept (I) is respected and trusted as being holier and worthy as anything else. It is that what knows, but knows not itself or its’ home from which is it lost.
But I believe there exists a subconscious that is compatible with Buddhism.

Like a lost drop of the ocean as confused consciousness having lost its’ nature?
We ( drop) are helpless conditioned and “Mara” rules. Detecting it in moments it is triggered by looking within, it “fades” while by reacting mind by lost in our thoughts or in outer phenomena due to the trigger; it manifests and becomes more powerful. Then suffering is present.

So ultimately according to Buddhist teachings the innermost subtle consciousness is the sole sort of creator.... H H Dalai Lama http://www.dalailama.com/messages/envir ... -of-nature
Last edited by muni on Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
http://www.tenzinzopa.com/Ebooks/Cttb_B ... mplete.pdf

Rest in natural great peace this exhausted mind,
Beaten helplessly by karma and neurotic thoughts
Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara.
Rest in natural great peace. — Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby Grigoris » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:00 pm

odysseus wrote:I guess it would fit in with the karmic level of consciousness.
Which karmic level of consciousness? I ask because you are saying that Mara arises from the subconscious, but there is no model of mind in Buddhism where there is a "stand-alone" reservoir of evil.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby odysseus » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:12 pm

Grigoris wrote:
odysseus wrote:I guess it would fit in with the karmic level of consciousness.
Which karmic level of consciousness?
The eight level of consciousness.

Grigoris wrote:I ask because you are saying that Mara arises from the subconscious, but there is no model of mind in Buddhism where there is a "stand-alone" reservoir of evil.


I didn't say there is a "reservoir of evil", lol. I say Mara comes into being from subconscious vibes and there exist countless subconsciousnesses in the Universe.
It's not so difficult to be a good person, but to be genuinely kind takes courage because it can be downright dangerous.

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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby Grigoris » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:56 pm

I get the feeling you don't know what you are talking about and are trying to wed pop-psychology with Buddhism. Whatever turns you on.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby muni » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:18 pm

I try to understand what is said.

The basis for confusion arises, what turns into subject and therefore identifying with phenomena and so other separate phenomena/objects arise, which are then triggering the subject. This is actually like the metaphor; mirrors’ reflections which are pleasing or harming (conditioning) the mirror.

"The source of our perception, our way of seeing, lies in our store consciousness. If ten people look at a cloud, there will be ten different perceptions of it. Whether it is perceived as a dog, a hammer, or a coat depends on our mind -- our sadness, our memories, our anger. Our perceptions carry with them all the errors of subjectivity."


Then there are many such storehouses, therefore there are many medicines to be freed into ‘being our Nature'. Nature is devoid of subject-object dichotomy. Problem is that even Nature turns by intellectual thought or by the storehouse its interpretations based on its karmic view ( having subject-object dichotomy) in an intellectual object which is existence or nonexistence.
Last edited by muni on Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.tenzinzopa.com/Ebooks/Cttb_B ... mplete.pdf

Rest in natural great peace this exhausted mind,
Beaten helplessly by karma and neurotic thoughts
Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara.
Rest in natural great peace. — Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

odysseus
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby odysseus » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:I get the feeling you don't know what you are talking about and are trying to wed pop-psychology with Buddhism. Whatever turns you on.


I didn't claim to be an expert, but "pop psychology"?? No, sir you seem to not have read what I wrote properly. Maybe you just don't believe that the subconscious exist?
It's not so difficult to be a good person, but to be genuinely kind takes courage because it can be downright dangerous.

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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby Grigoris » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:07 pm

odysseus wrote:I didn't claim to be an expert, but "pop psychology"?? No, sir you seem to not have read what I wrote properly. Maybe you just don't believe that the subconscious exist?
The idea of the "subconscious" is a part of pop-psychology.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

muni
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby muni » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:25 am

Some are calling it “unconscious” as well, since it are actions by which there is no reasoning used but are more ‘spontaneous’ popping up out of the storehouse.
In research by psychologists, investigation tests are done, showing the (re)actions by this subconscious before reflecting is used. And the results are different. It cannot be other than it lays in the stored habits/ideas/karmic perception, which pop up when a connection with a certain object is made or to what the mind is pulled towards.
The actions’ source is not seen as we are not aware of this eighth consciousness/storehouse. And so by unawareness our circle of habitual tendencies keeps rolling. Looking within is what Buddha did, to see the cause of our suffering and not to look to the triggering object like a dog will run behind a thrown stick more than ones but a lion will not do that. We suffer again and again, run behind the stick, or behind the triggering object, we do not look within; to see the source where are suffering or irritations are coming from, we each time react on the object. A Lion would not run behind a thrown stick twice, but should direct him towards us who is throwing the stick. In same way when we turn our gaze within, be aware before reaction can pop up, we are aware and look within. By training so, karmic actions can be avoid and we make a chance the circle of suffering can be broken.

I believe Mara comes from the subconscious, but many would not agree with me. Mara is subconscious vibrations who come from others that starts subconscious processes within oneself.
http://www.tenzinzopa.com/Ebooks/Cttb_B ... mplete.pdf

Rest in natural great peace this exhausted mind,
Beaten helplessly by karma and neurotic thoughts
Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara.
Rest in natural great peace. — Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby binocular » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:05 pm

muni wrote:/.../
By training so, karmic actions can be avoid and we make a chance the circle of suffering can be broken.

Do you mean by this that if a buddha were to take a neurological test about free will (the kind of tests that Libet, for example, performed), the results of that test would be categorically different in comparison to an ordinary person?

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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby muni » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:29 pm

binocular wrote:
muni wrote:/.../
By training so, karmic actions can be avoid and we make a chance the circle of suffering can be broken.

Do you mean by this that if a buddha were to take a neurological test about free will (the kind of tests that Libet, for example, performed), the results of that test would be categorically different in comparison to an ordinary person?


Free will sounds to be still conditioned on something by which one is free to do, speak, think.
I do not think there would be the need for Buddha for a test of the so called Alaya Vinaya. The "awareness of things" are different by different persons and are dependent on the different karmic problems which block enlightenment for us.
Buddha is Enlightenment/Awaken Nature, is not conditioned, no misperception is (= no duality as a subject aware of objects/things) and so there is nothing to be tested.

Kleśa-māra, or Ma̋ra as the embodiment of all unskillful emotions, such as greed, hate and delusion.

Mṛtyu-māra, or Māra as death.

Skandha-māra, or Māra as metaphor for the entirety of conditioned existence.

Devaputra-māra, the deva of the sensuous realm, who tries to prevent Gautama Buddha from attaining liberation from the cycle of rebirth on the night of the Buddha´s enlightenment.
Last edited by muni on Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
http://www.tenzinzopa.com/Ebooks/Cttb_B ... mplete.pdf

Rest in natural great peace this exhausted mind,
Beaten helplessly by karma and neurotic thoughts
Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara.
Rest in natural great peace. — Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby binocular » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:37 pm

I'm continuing the train of thought that you started:
muni wrote:In research by psychologists, investigation tests are done, showing the (re)actions by this subconscious before reflecting is used.


muni wrote:I do not think there would be the need for Buddha for a test of the so called Alaya Vinaya. The "awareness of things" are different by different persons and are dependent on the different karmic problems which block enlightenment for us.
Buddha is Enlightenment/Awaken Nature, is not conditioned, no misperception is (= no duality a subject aware of objects/things) and so there can nothing be tested.

A buddha probably wouldn't need such a test.

But for the rest of us, and especially for neuroscientists, it would be interesting to see how such a person would do on a neurological test (of free will).
(Ordinary people "fail" those tests, supposedly not having free will. It would be a major breakthrough to find a category of people who have free will even by criteria like Libet's.)

Again, I'm pursuing this because you brought up scientific research, and I'd like to see what you have to say on the matter.

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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby muni » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:50 pm

binocular wrote:I'm continuing the train of thought that you started:
muni wrote:In research by psychologists, investigation tests are done, showing the (re)actions by this subconscious before reflecting is used.


muni wrote:I do not think there would be the need for Buddha for a test of the so called Alaya Vinaya. The "awareness of things" are different by different persons and are dependent on the different karmic problems which block enlightenment for us.
Buddha is Enlightenment/Awaken Nature, is not conditioned, no misperception is (= no duality a subject aware of objects/things) and so there can nothing be tested.

A buddha probably wouldn't need such a test.

But for the rest of us, and especially for neuroscientists, it would be interesting to see how such a person would do on a neurological test of free will.
Ordinary people "fail" those tests, supposedly not having free will. It would be a major breakthrough to find a category of people who have free will even by criteria like Libet's.


Can you explain what you precisely mean with free will?
Sorry, I don't know Libet, but thank you in any case I will look for information about. I was talking recently with psychologists research, doing more tests right now as there is a lot of interess in Psychology for Buddhism. H H Dalai Lama has talked a lot as well with scientists ( neurologists included) regarding the obscurations who are preventing us to awaken, like the emotionally particullarly and without transformation we remain conditioned.
Whatever we think we are or are not, seems to keep us conditioned by our karmic tendencies, makes us slave by dualistic perceptions or the cognetive obscurations.
http://www.tenzinzopa.com/Ebooks/Cttb_B ... mplete.pdf

Rest in natural great peace this exhausted mind,
Beaten helplessly by karma and neurotic thoughts
Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara.
Rest in natural great peace. — Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

muni
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Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby muni » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:32 pm

binocular wrote:A buddha probably wouldn't need such a test.

But for the rest of us, and especially for neuroscientists, it would be interesting to see how such a person would do on a neurological test (of free will).
(Ordinary people "fail" those tests, supposedly not having free will. It would be a major breakthrough to find a category of people who have free will even by criteria like Libet's.)

Again, I'm pursuing this because you brought up scientific research, and I'd like to see what you have to say on the matter.


I just read about Libet and I saw him saying that 'we become conscious' about what the brain (particular cortex) decided, a half a second or so later.
Then it is possible to be aware of this before acting, to act or not. I suppose this is meant with the free will.
People not aware, will also not be able to see clear and mostly not be able to prevent the action. A good example is impulsive (re)actions and so also all karmic actions by obscurations.
http://www.tenzinzopa.com/Ebooks/Cttb_B ... mplete.pdf

Rest in natural great peace this exhausted mind,
Beaten helplessly by karma and neurotic thoughts
Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara.
Rest in natural great peace. — Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

binocular
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby binocular » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:12 pm

*Grigoris is silent*

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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Postby muni » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:46 pm

Oh but subconscious is not so much a term used in English Buddhist words, I guess.

This “being aware before acting” allows us to check our motivation if we act as well. Perhaps this is what can be called mindfulness in Buddhism, but I am not strong in terms. Terms are useful and temporary very much helping, but can also result in confusion especially if we hold onto them instead of they are leading to practice. Checking the mind/being aware in each moment prevent us from repetitions of our karmic actions, stops actions by disturbed emotions.
Then we need to be free of our duality or we have still the cognitive obscuration. In any case Buddha Siddhartha kept looking within and experienced empty or naked Mind, not holding onto anything. Regarding this, an experienced Awaken master can help.

Tenzin Palmo, the English Jetsunma says: There is no need to hold on whatever comes in our mind, we do not have to be swept away, we are on the riverbank, looking on the river flowing, we are not in the middle of the river being swept along. We can all do this. But we are so caught up in our thinking and that is like being swept away by the river, not aware.

To avoid Mara plays, causing suffering and harm. I guess that is the reason why we practise, to cut through this circle?
http://www.tenzinzopa.com/Ebooks/Cttb_B ... mplete.pdf

Rest in natural great peace this exhausted mind,
Beaten helplessly by karma and neurotic thoughts
Like the relentless fury of the pounding waves
In the infinite ocean of samsara.
Rest in natural great peace. — Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche


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