Karma & Hell Realm!

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Dan74
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Re: Karma & Hell Realm!

Post by Dan74 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:42 am

CedarTree wrote:The subtle point though is that earth and this realm seems to come about by natural laws that kind of force things into the way they are "Gravity forces planets sphereish, etc." These are neutral.

Hell realms as described with razor blades and poop everywhere seem weirdly not to of the same order lol
They are though (in principle). They are mind made. Our karmic stream creates them according both to our shared karma and more individual one.

Of course I get that we don't have physical laws describing the precise result from precise conditions, but in principle I see it as very natural as long as one believes in the continuation of subtle karma. Coarse physical karmic effects create the physical realm, subtle mental karmic effects create the subtle realms. In absolute sense they are not two, but to deluded beings they appear as two. And deluded beings of course continue to reify (ie make into 'thingies') in the subtle realms. So anger may manifest as a demon, hate as burning etc.

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Re: Karma & Hell Realm!

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:03 am

Dan74 wrote:
They are though (in principle). They are mind made. Our karmic stream creates them according both to our shared karma and more individual one.

Of course I get that we don't have physical laws describing the precise result from precise conditions, but in principle I see it as very natural as long as one believes in the continuation of subtle karma. Coarse physical karmic effects create the physical realm, subtle mental karmic effects create the subtle realms. In absolute sense they are not two, but to deluded beings they appear as two. And deluded beings of course continue to reify (ie make into 'thingies') in the subtle realms. So anger may manifest as a demon, hate as burning etc.
Tashi delek D74,

Hell realms are a continuation of individual karma and collective karma.
According Dzogchen the Nature encompasses everything , then also hell realms, including the sentient beings there present.
These dualistic worlds /realms can be seen as illusion, as like other dualisms, not true.
Everything would be self-liberating, or everything which is based on dualisms has an "end".

That end(ing) is based on "time " .

- The construction of time related to the hell karma would be interesting to know as well the time tables of other realms like these from the Gods.
- Also the amount / weight of karma to get in these realms would be of interest.
- Then also nice to know, how can one liberate these sentient beings there, taken into account that karma is difficult to eradicate by others. It is dependent on recognition of ones Nature.

- Have heard that because of intense ignorance /suffering etc. it is difficult to reach the Wisdom aspect of sentient beings, therefore liberating by others (hearing efc) that is only known to me for human beings by the teachings of Buddhas etc.
- Have also heard about the 6 Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who are able to do something in these realms, but never heard anything about their methods there.

By Chutor we can feed the hungry goasts, but how can they be liberated ?

So the methods for these realms , like liberating hell beings, that is unknown matter for the most . Guess it must be written somewhere.

KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Karma & Hell Realm!

Post by veggiepeace » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:19 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
They are though (in principle). They are mind made. Our karmic stream creates them according both to our shared karma and more individual one.

Of course I get that we don't have physical laws describing the precise result from precise conditions, but in principle I see it as very natural as long as one believes in the continuation of subtle karma. Coarse physical karmic effects create the physical realm, subtle mental karmic effects create the subtle realms. In absolute sense they are not two, but to deluded beings they appear as two. And deluded beings of course continue to reify (ie make into 'thingies') in the subtle realms. So anger may manifest as a demon, hate as burning etc.
Tashi delek D74,

Hell realms are a continuation of individual karma and collective karma.
According Dzogchen the Nature encompasses everything , then also hell realms, including the sentient beings there present.
These dualistic worlds /realms can be seen as illusion, as like other dualisms, not true.
Everything would be self-liberating, or everything which is based on dualisms has an "end".

That end(ing) is based on "time " .

- The construction of time related to the hell karma would be interesting to know as well the time tables of other realms like these from the Gods.
- Also the amount / weight of karma to get in these realms would be of interest.
- Then also nice to know, how can one liberate these sentient beings there, taken into account that karma is difficult to eradicate by others. It is dependent on recognition of ones Nature.

- Have heard that because of intense ignorance /suffering etc. it is difficult to reach the Wisdom aspect of sentient beings, therefore liberating by others (hearing efc) that is only known to me for human beings by the teachings of Buddhas etc.
- Have also heard about the 6 Buddhas and Bodhisattvas who are able to do something in these realms, but never heard anything about their methods there.

By Chutor we can feed the hungry goasts, but how can they be liberated ?

So the methods for these realms , like liberating hell beings, that is unknown matter for the most . Guess it must be written somewhere.

KY.

Good morning,

sorry for interfering in your discussion.

By special practice (Chutor) we can feed the hungry ghosts.

But will they be liberated then?

Unfortunately I assume they will become attached to our "food" and
will not liberate at all.

Maybe a strict kind of diet is required for the hungry ghosts which
will lead them to learning or knowing how to liberate themselves.

I would be very happy to find such kind of appropriate diet, because
it seems that I have been dealing with all kinds of hungry ghosts.
First I will take a deeper look into Chutor!

Thanks a lot :anjali:
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May all beings be free from suffering and the causes of suffering
:anjali: Compassion will find Echoes in Actions

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Re: Karma & Hell Realm!

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:26 am

veggiepeace wrote:
Good morning,

sorry for interfering in your discussion.

By special practice (Chutor) we can feed the hungry ghosts.

But will they be liberated then?

Unfortunately I assume they will become attached to our "food" and
will not liberate at all.

Maybe a strict kind of diet is required for the hungry ghosts which
will lead them to learning or knowing how to liberate themselves.

I would be very happy to find such kind of appropriate diet, because
it seems that I have been dealing with all kinds of hungry ghosts.
First I will take a deeper look into Chutor!

Thanks a lot :anjali:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
May all beings be free from suffering and the causes of suffering
Tashi delek V,

Good afternoon / Guten Tag!

Regarding hungry goast, in case of feeding them, they do not suffer for a while.
Then they are able to "understand / recognize", for a while........
Heard that recognition leads to liberation, like in the Bardo also by hearing (remembering)

KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Karma & Hell Realm!

Post by veggiepeace » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:09 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tashi delek V,

Good afternoon / Guten Tag!

Regarding hungry goast, in case of feeding them, they do not suffer for a while.
Then they are able to "understand / recognize", for a while........
Heard that recognition leads to liberation, like in the Bardo also by hearing (remembering)

KY.
Guten Morgen!

Thanks for your answer. That's good, if they are able to understand / recognize for a while...
because they might need some time and space for that.
I am sure that there exist many "hungry ghosts" like that, for whom it might
be helpful to get Chutor and the "learn" in intervals.

At the moment I am watching this demonstration of offering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NULqDdNxUeM

But what if they always come back and take all the food, but
do not understand or recognise anything...

Is it because the offering was done inappropriatly ?

Or is it because it is in their nature that they are not able to understand or recognise ?

Some might not be capable to understand or recognise at all... what about
offering them some food and they become bigger and bigger without understanding anything ?
I really believe that there are some very hungry ghosts who totally lack the ability of understanding. Even if it is not "their fault" that they lack this ability to understand.
Then I would choose to not offer them anything at all. Even if that does not sound very "nice"
it might protect other beings from being harmed by them.
:anjali: Compassion will find Echoes in Actions

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Karma & Hell Realm!

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:26 am

veggiepeace wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tashi delek V,

Good afternoon / Guten Tag!

Regarding hungry goast, in case of feeding them, they do not suffer for a while.
Then they are able to "understand / recognize", for a while........
Heard that recognition leads to liberation, like in the Bardo also by hearing (remembering)

KY.
Guten Morgen!

Thanks for your answer. That's good, if the are able to understand / recognize for a while...
because they might need some time and space for that.
I am sure that there exist many "hungry ghosts" like that, for whom it might
be helpful to get Chutor and the "learn" in intervals.

At the moment I am watching this demonstration of offering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NULqDdNxUeM

But what if they always come back and take all the food, but
do not understand or recognise anything...

Is it because the offering was done inappropriatly ?

Or is it because it is in their nature that they are not able to understand or recognise ?

Some might not be capable to understand or recognise at all... what about
offering them some food and they become bigger and bigger without understanding anything ?
I really believe that there are some very hungry ghosts who totally lack the ability of understanding. Even if it is not "their fault" that they lack this ability to understand.
Then I would chose to not offer them anything at all. Even if that does not sound very "nice"
it might protect other beings from being harmed by them.
Tashi delek V,

Well, hungry goasts have inherent Sugatagarbha / Bodhicitta and it is this aspect which can be opened.
If we suffer intense, then we also are more ready to understand Buddha Dharma.
Same beat with hungry goasts i guess so, because they feel suffering and peaceful state of Mind.

But in the world of Gods they cannot be easy teached, only by suffering of their ending status, they can remember maybe something, but never during their stayment in their palace.

Hungry goasts are looking for food, that is their daily business . Their suffering is caused by themselves because the intake of nice food changes into
fire etc. Even if they can take that food it is little .

But if they can get food , then they are attentive for the supplier.
Guess here starts something regarding remembering /recognition.

But on the other side, demons can "suffer" endless, because their destructive power is never ending nearly.
These entities are mostly put under control by rituals and turned into Buddhist protectors.
So it are mostly these kind of demons etc., who cause bad luck etc.

All in all is Chu tor of very poisitive way in giving something, done in the mood of the Great Mahayana Samaya of the Bodhisattva.
And here are the methods legio.

KY
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Karma & Hell Realm!

Post by veggiepeace » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:05 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
veggiepeace wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Tashi delek V,

Good afternoon / Guten Tag!

Regarding hungry goast, in case of feeding them, they do not suffer for a while.
Then they are able to "understand / recognize", for a while........
Heard that recognition leads to liberation, like in the Bardo also by hearing (remembering)

KY.
Guten Morgen!

Thanks for your answer. That's good, if the are able to understand / recognize for a while...
because they might need some time and space for that.
I am sure that there exist many "hungry ghosts" like that, for whom it might
be helpful to get Chutor and the "learn" in intervals.

At the moment I am watching this demonstration of offering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NULqDdNxUeM

But what if they always come back and take all the food, but
do not understand or recognise anything...

Is it because the offering was done inappropriatly ?

Or is it because it is in their nature that they are not able to understand or recognise ?

Some might not be capable to understand or recognise at all... what about
offering them some food and they become bigger and bigger without understanding anything ?
I really believe that there are some very hungry ghosts who totally lack the ability of understanding. Even if it is not "their fault" that they lack this ability to understand.
Then I would chose to not offer them anything at all. Even if that does not sound very "nice"
it might protect other beings from being harmed by them.
Tashi delek V,

Well, hungry goasts have inherent Sugatagarbha / Bodhicitta and it is this aspect which can be opened.
If we suffer intense, then we also are more ready to understand Buddha Dharma.
Same beat with hungry goasts i guess so, because they feel suffering and peaceful state of Mind.

But in the world of Gods they cannot be easy teached, only by suffering of their ending status, they can remember maybe something, but never during their stayment in their palace.

Hungry goasts are looking for food, that is their daily business . Their suffering is caused by themselves because the intake of nice food changes into
fire etc. Even if they can take that food it is little .

But if they can get food , then they are attentive for the supplier.
Guess here starts something regarding remembering /recognition.

But on the other side, demons can "suffer" endless, because their destructive power is never ending nearly.
These entities are mostly put under control by rituals and turned into Buddhist protectors.
So it are mostly these kind of demons etc., who cause bad luck etc.

All in all is Chu tor of very poisitive way in giving something, done in the mood of the Great Mahayana Samaya of the Bodhisattva.
And here are the methods legio.

KY
Thank you.
So maybe what you call demons could possibly fit onto the description of pathological psychopaths ? Dangerous people without empathy whose mind, brain, emotional body unfortunately can never be restored back into an understanding, feeling, recognising being ? People who are capable to do heiness crimes, incredible brutal and destructive acts against other people without being hindered by their conscience or consciousness...And who are not capable to feel any remorse or regret afterwards.

Or are demons inivisble for the human eye... I get the impression that nowadays some demons are literally embodied or realised through pathological psychopaths...

Do you think this is possible ?

And how could they be put under control, if their inherent nature seems to be to be completely out of control ?
:anjali: Compassion will find Echoes in Actions

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veggiepeace
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Re: Karma & Hell Realm!

Post by veggiepeace » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:31 pm

I find this very inspiring:

phpBB [video]


Thanks for this discussion in this thread, very helpful for me and probably many others.

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May all beings be free from suffering and the causes of suffering :anjali:
:anjali: Compassion will find Echoes in Actions

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CedarTree
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Re: Karma & Hell Realm!

Post by CedarTree » Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:05 am

I wonder if we are getting at a system though were if Karma has an "ethos" built into it. What does that subtley mean for other things..

Maybe there is a system in place.... Maybe we are the system....

Practice, Practice, Practice

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Karma & Hell Realm!

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:30 am

veggiepeace wrote:
Thank you.
So maybe what you call demons could possibly fit onto the description of pathological psychopaths ? Dangerous people without empathy whose mind, brain, emotional body unfortunately can never be restored back into an understanding, feeling, recognising being ? People who are capable to do heiness crimes, incredible brutal and destructive acts against other people without being hindered by their conscience or consciousness...And who are not capable to feel any remorse or regret afterwards.

Or are demons inivisble for the human eye... I get the impression that nowadays some demons are literally embodied or realised through pathological psychopaths...

Do you think this is possible ?

And how could they be put under control, if their inherent nature seems to be to be completely out of control ?

Tashi delek V,

Humans can be like a devil, heavently, animal, hungry goast.
We can behave like a devil, god etc. We have the abbility to be that, no doubt about it and we can make more out of it .

The other beings are unseen to the most of us. Mostly they experience the effects of these beings like illness, luck etc.

For these purposes humans invented rituals to come in contact, prayers is one very welknown ritual.

Further some demons like to posess a body or kill that body after use.
Sure there are people who are possesed by demons, which was mostly caused in their weak moments .

Others like the Ne Chung and Shugden oracles are done on a voluntary base.
Here the human body is made suitable for the visiting oracle.
So the monks here live a pure live, if not the case the body is suitable for a bad demon.


Demons are put under control by certain demon traps.
We can compare this with the Goast of Alladin in the bottle.

a Demon can come out of the trap, on certain vows / conditions, in Tibetan Traditions they can be transformed into Dharma Protectors and are very powerfull (because a demon can be powerful).
So the vows of a demon is the chain back to the trap, if they would break them.
I do not know until now such a case, but maybe another one knows it.

KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Karma & Hell Realm!

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:58 am

CedarTree wrote:
Good point but there are also actual different planes of existence in both the Pali Canon, Mahayana Sutras, and to my knowledge Tantra material.

Can you go into this a bit?

Also were do these realms come from, what is the dynamic of how they come into existence as obviously the environment will condition the mind state to some degree, that is why they are a Hell realm...
Same as where the human realm comes from.
So, you only have to look at your own mind right now and look at what the Buddha taught about suffering, grasping, no-self, four noble truths, etc.
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Re: Karma & Hell Realm!

Post by Sherab » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:18 am

CedarTree wrote:Maybe there is a system in place.... Maybe we are the system....
Yes, this has to be the case because the philosophy in Buddhism is idealism.

The mind is foremost. Lack of knowledge of reality as it is results in an apparent duality of self and other. The other includes the environment.

With duality of self and other, the deluded mind of self-grasping and clinging arose and generate actions. What was an illusion (the environmental other) becomes reified through repeated actions.

Repeated actions generate habits and habitual tendencies. Beings of similar habits and habit tendencies would be more "visible" to each other and would share a similar karmic vision of their environment.

At death time, whatever karma/habit that is activated, a similar karmic vision follows. If you are aware at the time of death, you will have to freedom to change your karmic vision. If not, the karmic result will be unavoidable.

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