Mahamudra and Dzogchen

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Sennin
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Sennin » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:32 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:09 pm
Sennin wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:57 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:45 pm
Before connecting w a teacher research all the lineages. Research their primary methods of instruction. Research their methods of practice. Then, follow your heart. Your heart will become inspired, awed and transfixed somehow. Find that guru and give it your all. You can practice Mahamudra and/or Mahasandhi. These areas are deep and vast. They are amazing.

I think this is a good idea, to generally know what practice/instructions one will be committing to.
Of course, in Vajrayana you can’t know until you take teachings.
True. Even so for me I like to try learn the history of the lineage and lineage masters and that can give a taste of interest...or not.
Namo Guru Bhyaḥ

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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:30 am

Let’s avoid confusion. You can learn some stuff before taking teachings. For example, let’s say you want to know Geluk. Then you can learn you will learn step by step from sutra, logic, etc., and then come to receive initiation in like Guhyasamaja and practice that step by step. Or you can go to a Kagyu lama and learn they are giving pith instructions or some dakini initiation. Or to a Dzogchen teacher who is giving introductions according to intimate instructions. You can google what these are about and prepare. Then one should consider carefully where you are and how you are, what you are ready to do.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:36 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:30 am
Let’s avoid confusion. You can learn some stuff before taking teachings. For example, let’s say you want to know Geluk. Then you can learn you will learn step by step from sutra, logic, etc., and then come to receive initiation in like Guhyasamaja and practice that step by step. Or you can go to a Kagyu lama and learn they are giving pith instructions or some dakini initiation. Or to a Dzogchen teacher who is giving introductions according to intimate instructions. You can google what these are about and prepare. Then one should consider carefully where you are and how you are, what you are ready to do.
The teacher is more important than the teaching, actually.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

kausalya
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by kausalya » Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:50 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:34 pm
What is everyone's opinion of Mahamudra and Dzogchen? How good are they?
Opinions aren't really a factor here... Mahamudra/Dzogchen are so far beyond what ordinary people such as ourselves can understand, to form an opinion is like pissing in the wind and calling it rain.

As to how good they are, I can only hope we all reach the state of experiencing their fruits. What else is there to say?
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:36 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:30 am
Let’s avoid confusion. You can learn some stuff before taking teachings. For example, let’s say you want to know Geluk. Then you can learn you will learn step by step from sutra, logic, etc., and then come to receive initiation in like Guhyasamaja and practice that step by step. Or you can go to a Kagyu lama and learn they are giving pith instructions or some dakini initiation. Or to a Dzogchen teacher who is giving introductions according to intimate instructions. You can google what these are about and prepare. Then one should consider carefully where you are and how you are, what you are ready to do.
The teacher is more important than the teaching, actually.
Yeah, well for me I like the teachers who teach the tantras, demonstrates good judgment. For better or worse I got prodded by lamas to go after stuff like Chakrasamvara, Guhyagarbha and Guhyasamaja. It’s prob due to some fault of mine. I’m not that high level. Anyway, I did it and it helps me have a good foundation.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Virgo
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Virgo » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:40 pm

kausalya wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:50 pm
Stiphan wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:34 pm
What is everyone's opinion of Mahamudra and Dzogchen? How good are they?
Opinions aren't really a factor here... Mahamudra/Dzogchen are so far beyond what ordinary people such as ourselves can understand, to form an opinion is like pissing in the wind and calling it rain.

As to how good they are, I can only hope we all reach the state of experiencing their fruits. What else is there to say?
Huh?

Kevin...

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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:47 pm

Virgo wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:40 pm
kausalya wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:50 pm
Stiphan wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:34 pm
What is everyone's opinion of Mahamudra and Dzogchen? How good are they?
Opinions aren't really a factor here... Mahamudra/Dzogchen are so far beyond what ordinary people such as ourselves can understand, to form an opinion is like pissing in the wind and calling it rain.

As to how good they are, I can only hope we all reach the state of experiencing their fruits. What else is there to say?
Huh?

Kevin...
Mahamudra/Dzogchen are beyond opinions.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Virgo
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Virgo » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:07 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:47 pm
Mahamudra/Dzogchen are beyond opinions.
I am sure lots of people have opinions about them.

Kevin...

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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:10 pm

Virgo wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:07 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:47 pm
Mahamudra/Dzogchen are beyond opinions.
I am sure lots of people have opinions about them.

Kevin...
That’s like so dualistic man
I got my Chili Chilaya.

kausalya
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by kausalya » Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:19 pm

Virgo wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:40 pm
kausalya wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:50 pm
Stiphan wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:34 pm
What is everyone's opinion of Mahamudra and Dzogchen? How good are they?
Opinions aren't really a factor here... Mahamudra/Dzogchen are so far beyond what ordinary people such as ourselves can understand, to form an opinion is like pissing in the wind and calling it rain.

As to how good they are, I can only hope we all reach the state of experiencing their fruits. What else is there to say?
Huh?

Kevin...
We as human beings may not be beyond opinions, but the practices we're talking about are inconceivable.

The idea that we could say anything meaningful about them in this context is... rather silly.

Anything we do say says more about us than it does about the practices in question, particularly if we're trying to ascertain their relative value. It's asking for trouble (IMO), and it smells! :lol:
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Virgo
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Virgo » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:03 pm

kausalya wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:19 pm
[(IMO)
:shrug:

Kevin...

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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by kausalya » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:20 pm

Virgo wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:03 pm
kausalya wrote:
Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:19 pm
[(IMO)
:shrug:

Kevin...
I had to add that in there after it occurred to me that mine amounts to just one opinion among many.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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passel
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by passel » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:52 am

I think this question is on point, but maybe it could be a new thread- there were a few different thread with similar titles, and I think a bunch of posts or even a thread got deleted? Idk

If one held the view that mahamudra and dzogchen have the same basis and the same fruit, that just the paths are distinct (but lets be honest overlapping- cf. JLing Lion's Roar on stillness movement noticing in Dzogchen as but one of kotis of examples), then does that just boil down to two distinct sets of texts, instructions, practices, practice communities?

Hypothetically then one could combine tools from one set with tools from the other set in response to distinct practice needs. You'd want to get feedback from a practice community, ideally one with a fully functioning ecology, as you do do it. Like fusion cooking- you probably don't want to put ketchup on lasagna, but Korean barbecue tacos work for sure. or Sonora dogs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoran_hot_dog

I don't think anyone on the thread would disagree that you should try to get a clear sense of fine distinctions in views and methods and probably even visions of what to look for in an accomplished person between two systems. But I'm just sayin' we don't have to reinvent the wheel if we're influenced by some diverse dharma gates. The experiment seems to have been performed with some success over the years.

This is good, from Adeu R., one of Tsoknyi R's sawai lamas, Drukpa but had a Nyingmapa teacher in the lama jail w Garchen R and T Sangak. Khenpo Munsel.

(*thought on K Munsel- I get the impression he had an extremely unelaborate practice- not much ritual at all- I think he's the one that visualized the tools he had to work w as tantric ritual implements, but TR says he didn't really chant, he just sat, supposedly that's how he did DI as well. But I wonder if the more elaborate the practice, the more likely you are to run into contradictions- the more words- you use, the more disagreements. Kind of cynical, I'll have to chew on that.

https://www.lionsroar.com/two-great-paths/

(I'll be offline for a week but I'll read any responses if there are when I get back- if they don't get redacted- DON"T flame on this thread!! I want to be able to read it:)
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:08 am

passel wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:52 am
I think this question is on point, but maybe it could be a new thread- there were a few different thread with similar titles, and I think a bunch of posts or even a thread got deleted? Idk

If one held the view that mahamudra and dzogchen have the same basis and the same fruit, that just the paths are distinct (but lets be honest overlapping- cf. JLing Lion's Roar on stillness movement noticing in Dzogchen as but one of kotis of examples), then does that just boil down to two distinct sets of texts, instructions, practices, practice communities?
One cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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passel
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by passel » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:43 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:08 am
One cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.
Fantastic, thank you. I'm afraid I've never met a Sakyapa in the flesh, so my knowledge of the Lamdre system is less than meager, thanks for the response. I was really thinking of Kagyu/Nyingma sythesis, just since that's all I've really ever had any depth of exposure to (and some straight Nyingma, straight Kagyu, though neither has really clicked). Interesting, though, in that I made some quasi-perrenialist statements above without even considering a Lamdre view. The impression I get is that Kagyu Mahamudra and Sakya Lamdre could be the hardest view/practice systems to reconcile. Jampa Thaye does it, I guess, Karma Thinley. Ka-Nying and Nyinga/Sakya syncretism though seem to be more common. But 5 aggregates as the basis does make Lamdre hard to reconcile w Dz as well, at least to uninstructed worldlings like yours truly.

(Context: I had in mind a statement on a deleted? thread that MM and Dz have same basis, same fruit, different paths- which I gather does not jibe w the view of Lamdre) Wonder if Lamdre-Dz practitioners would conceive of the two as parallel practice milieu that should be engaged, simultaneously or in sequence, or whether those practitioners find a way to fit one set of instruction/practices within the other. I guess those are not mutually exclusive responses- you could subsume one system within the other in sequence. Simultaneously would be hard.

Re-reading your quote above though makes me think that a practitioner of some capacity could practice Lamdre from a Dz point of view, but not vice versa. Unless different bases can have the same fruit, though I don't recall coming across that idea before..
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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passel
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by passel » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:48 am

I strike "simultaneously". I'm not sure that any two practices could be practiced simultaneously if they were not the same. If they were genuinely different you'd have to practice them in sequence.

(Of course then I just think, you can practice the three levels of vows simultaneously, but they're not the same)
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:41 am

passel wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:43 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:08 am
One cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.
Fantastic, thank you. I'm afraid I've never met a Sakyapa in the flesh, so my knowledge of the Lamdre system is less than meager, thanks for the response. I was really thinking of Kagyu/Nyingma sythesis, just since that's all I've really ever had any depth of exposure to (and some straight Nyingma, straight Kagyu, though neither has really clicked). Interesting, though, in that I made some quasi-perrenialist statements above without even considering a Lamdre view. The impression I get is that Kagyu Mahamudra and Sakya Lamdre could be the hardest view/practice systems to reconcile. Jampa Thaye does it, I guess, Karma Thinley. Ka-Nying and Nyinga/Sakya syncretism though seem to be more common. But 5 aggregates as the basis does make Lamdre hard to reconcile w Dz as well, at least to uninstructed worldlings like yours truly.

(Context: I had in mind a statement on a deleted? thread that MM and Dz have same basis, same fruit, different paths- which I gather does not jibe w the view of Lamdre) Wonder if Lamdre-Dz practitioners would conceive of the two as parallel practice milieu that should be engaged, simultaneously or in sequence, or whether those practitioners find a way to fit one set of instruction/practices within the other. I guess those are not mutually exclusive responses- you could subsume one system within the other in sequence. Simultaneously would be hard.

Re-reading your quote above though makes me think that a practitioner of some capacity could practice Lamdre from a Dz point of view, but not vice versa. Unless different bases can have the same fruit, though I don't recall coming across that idea before..
The basis is the same, the basis of purification is different.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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passel
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by passel » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:50 am

hm. Is that a straight Lamdre statement, or is it a way of harmonizing Lamdre and Dzogchen?
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:29 am

passel wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:50 am
hm. Is that a straight Lamdre statement, or is it a way of harmonizing Lamdre and Dzogchen?
In Lamdre, the basis, path, and result are identical. But the basis of purification is samsara. That is not true of Dzogchen.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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passel
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by passel » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:33 am

Would this book help me get that?

https://www.shambhala.com/treasures-of- ... -1578.html

So far I haven’t been able to squeeze much out of it
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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