Bodhicitta is fleeting...

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amanitamusc
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:11 pm

haha wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:57 pm
amanitamusc wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:33 pm
haha wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:24 am
I believe that the sprout of bodhicitta will be replaced by “ Why bother to save you if you’re such a jerk!”.
:smile:
So wise! :rolleye:Haha are you Dzogpachumpo's top by any chance?
No idea.
I just say it. If one has a child and that child has done something unpleasant (i.e he broke the phone or pot anything that one loves), one doesn't say to him, "you are just a jerk, I will leave you in the middle of the street of another city."
Yes of course you would include all beings in the Mandala.Pardon my foolishness.

kausalya
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by kausalya » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:45 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:21 am
“Why bother to save you if you’re such a jerk!”
First, save yourself from the idea that there are beings to be saved.

Everything you experience when you come into contact with beings is a result of your karma with them—giving rise to mental projections that we assume are real and inherent to a being outside of us, when that's not the case. All of the work happens in our mind as we begin to let go of our obsession with a fixed identity and the diseased behaviour patterns that go along with it. Before we can let others into our hearts, we have to clean up the place.

Generating bodhichitta is a non-trivial task, and great masters have spent years of their lives seeking the teachings on how to accomplish it. Sometimes all we can do is wish for it to arise, and contemplate the benefits of bodhichitta, without actually knowing how it comes about.

If you drill down to the real reason you want it, & not just because someone told you it's desirable, it will eventually happen for you. If nothing else, your purified desire will lead you to the appropriate teachings.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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bokki
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by bokki » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:01 am

this a beautiful and rich with insight thread, thnx! astus simon, amanita, all everybody, nice !

illn just lap a bit.
in my small mind, boddhicitta, the will for enlightenment,
is the reason for the big bang, super novas producing elements,
the raise of ''sentient'' life,
the reason a teaching exists, so ..if one wants to raise it, well..
one was raised by it,
even when he had no idea of existence at all..\
you can raise anything you want..
but it looks like rising your grand grand gran parent..

of course, u may work on compassion, love,
but that is only boddhicitta put in that place..


of course, that is a discriminatory view, but hey..

kausalya also has a point, whose is this boddhicitta that you try to raise?

boddhicitta will raise you up every morning, not the other way round..
so, if one has a will to enlighten,is that not the result of billins of years of the devolpment of the universe,
or its you particular decision..?

say, its like a raindrop falling into the ocean, thinking, lol, this ocean is...mine! lol

all imo,
very nice thread, thnx all
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

kausalya
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by kausalya » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:14 pm

bokki wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:01 am
kausalya also has a point, whose is this boddhicitta that you try to raise?
It isn't my point... just my poor explanation of the Diamond Sutra ;)

You're correct: the entire reason we try to develop bodhichitta is because we're committed to dropping our notions of self, because we recognize the imperative to support all sentient beings as we would our own children. The real thing is impossible to fabricate... we need to put in the work.

The person we are when this is done is not a person we would currently recognize, but what we "lose" is what we wanted to lose to begin with—our delusions.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Virgo
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by Virgo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:27 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:09 am
Yes, perhaps I should include it in My daily pratice. But it is very weird , every morning I wake up, the bodhicitta or renunciation I had yesterday is almost gone, only to arise again throughout the day, because I will have recited some poems on bodhicitta and recall the shortcomings of samsara. So I don’t know how I can ever get this two realisations 24/7
You can always apply the 4-point, 7-point, or 11-point training methods.

Kevin...

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bokki
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by bokki » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:08 am

LOL, i always found the 2.50 and 17.32 methods rather promising, though hard to practice and slow to deliver. dont practice the 9.21 method, that is dangerous. ull never know into what ull be reborn into...u may even acquire some yet unknown boddhicitta virus, and become a unknowing carrier...
best stick to the 3.71, its easy, undemanding, but ull have to wait a bit for results..or else, u could love your kitten, its a good way too.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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Virgo
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by Virgo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:17 am

bokki wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:08 am
LOL, i always found the 2.50 and 17.32 methods rather promising, though hard to practice and slow to deliver. dont practice the 9.21 method, that is dangerous. ull never know into what ull be reborn into...u may even acquire some yet unknown boddhicitta virus, and become a unknowing carrier...
best stick to the 3.71, its easy, undemanding, but ull have to wait a bit for results..or else, u could love your kitten, its a good way too.
Hi bokki,

Well the 4-point method concerns tonglen, the 7-point method concerns contemplating all sentient beings as having been your mother in countless previous lifetimes, and then finally the 11-point method is really just a combination of the 4 and 7-point methods.

Kevin...

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bokki
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by bokki » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:43 am

Hi Virgo,

Thank you for your reply, Sir. Now i understand these methods a bit more, i am from a bit diff trad, so i not know well.

And can i ask you, please?
If all sentient beings have been our mother at one time or other, are we all incestuous inbreeds?
Would it be better to stop breeding and extinct, all the sentient life, and leave the earth to plants, which breed by wind carried pollen, ..hmm, maybe they have some parent pollen, they may have this problem too..its better to self pollinate, id advise the plants...less karma.
but then, who am i to advise plants, im just an incestuous inbreed mammal sentient but rather dumb being.

Sir, plz note, i am only joking, plz. thank you.

b
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

MatthewAngby
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by MatthewAngby » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:24 am

Virgo wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:17 am
bokki wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:08 am
LOL, i always found the 2.50 and 17.32 methods rather promising, though hard to practice and slow to deliver. dont practice the 9.21 method, that is dangerous. ull never know into what ull be reborn into...u may even acquire some yet unknown boddhicitta virus, and become a unknowing carrier...
best stick to the 3.71, its easy, undemanding, but ull have to wait a bit for results..or else, u could love your kitten, its a good way too.
Hi bokki,

Well the 4-point method concerns tonglen, the 7-point method concerns contemplating all sentient beings as having been your mother in countless previous lifetimes, and then finally the 11-point method is really just a combination of the 4 and 7-point methods.

Kevin...
I like dangerous, so what’s the 9.21 method?

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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by Virgo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:58 pm

bokki wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:43 am
Hi Virgo,

Thank you for your reply, Sir. Now i understand these methods a bit more, i am from a bit diff trad, so i not know well.

And can i ask you, please?
If all sentient beings have been our mother at one time or other, are we all incestuous inbreeds?
Would it be better to stop breeding and extinct, all the sentient life, and leave the earth to plants, which breed by wind carried pollen, ..hmm, maybe they have some parent pollen, they may have this problem too..its better to self pollinate, id advise the plants...less karma.
but then, who am i to advise plants, im just an incestuous inbreed mammal sentient but rather dumb being.

Sir, plz note, i am only joking, plz. thank you.

b
Hi bokki,

Sexual misconduct only relates to relationships in this life, such as inbreeding, minors, and so on. The fact is all beings have been our mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, friends, and enemies in countless lifetimes.

Kevin...

kausalya
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by kausalya » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:03 pm

bokki wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:43 am
If all sentient beings have been our mother at one time or other, are we all incestuous
I mean, sort of. However, that's not the point! There's no benefit to thinking this way.

The point is to contemplate the immensity of beginningless time, the vast number of rebirths we all have had, and our actions in those rebirths.

At times, we contemplate our negative actions toward others in those rebirths, and at other times, we contemplate the kindness they have shown us. There's nothing quite like the love of a mother for her only son, so that's why this example is used as a focus (for us to begin acting in a way that pays respect to that relationship we've had with all beings, at some point or another).

A separate point of contemplation is to consider that, as beings in samsara, we've already done every negative action and every positive action there is to do, both selfishly and non-selfishly. Thinking in this way, we realize we have the freedom of choice to pursue the dharma (& embark on a loving path) whenever we wish.

Then come the benefits of engaging in dharma, vs. doing any old thing according to any motivation.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by Jeff H » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:25 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:24 am
bokki wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:08 am
dont practice the 9.21 method, that is dangerous. ull never know into what ull be reborn into...u may even acquire some yet unknown boddhicitta virus, and become a unknowing carrier...

or else, u could love your kitten, its a good way too.
I like dangerous, so what’s the 9.21 method?
The 9.21 method is trying to learn buddhadharma on Dharma Wheel.

Loving your kitten isn't a method, it's just garden variety samsara: loving what's lovable and hating what's hateful.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

kausalya
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by kausalya » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:39 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:25 pm
Loving your kitten isn't a method, it's just garden variety samsara: loving what's lovable and hating what's hateful.
Unless you see your kitten as a dependently-arising manifestation of clear-light emptiness & bliss...

For that matter, even when we take into account the need for a gradual approach, hidden within the the afflictive emotion is the seed of its purification (when it can finally arise independent of grasping).

Everyone in samsara eventually becomes enlightened through realizing the full truth of the dharma, well apart from any expression we can give to it. Now just happens to be the best time, because systematized teachings are here and we're making hay while the sun shines.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by Jeff H » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:42 pm

kausalya wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:39 pm
Jeff H wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:25 pm
Loving your kitten isn't a method, it's just garden variety samsara: loving what's lovable and hating what's hateful.
Unless you see your kitten as a dependently-arising manifestation of clear-light emptiness & bliss...

For that matter, even when we take into account the need for a gradual approach, hidden within the the afflictive emotion is the seed of its purification (when it can finally arise independent of grasping).

Everyone in samsara eventually becomes enlightened through realizing the full truth of the dharma, well apart from any expression we can give to it. Now just happens to be the best time, because systematized teachings are here and we're making hay while the sun shines.
True, of course, but in the meantime “loving what is lovable and hating what is hateful” is a still a function of our unexamined ignorance.
In chapter 9 Shantideva wrote:135cd. But if results exist within their cause,
Those who eat their food consume their excrement.

136. And likewise with the money they would spend on clothing,
Let them rather buy the cotton grains to wear!
“But,” you say, “the world is ignorant and blind.
For this is taught by ‘those who know the truth.’”

137. This knowledge must be present in the worldly too!
And if they have it, why do they not see?
If now you say that what the worldly see has no validity,
This means that what they clearly see is false.
:stirthepot:
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

kausalya
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by kausalya » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:45 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:42 pm
kausalya wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:39 pm
Jeff H wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:25 pm
Loving your kitten isn't a method, it's just garden variety samsara: loving what's lovable and hating what's hateful.
Unless you see your kitten as a dependently-arising manifestation of clear-light emptiness & bliss...

For that matter, even when we take into account the need for a gradual approach, hidden within the the afflictive emotion is the seed of its purification (when it can finally arise independent of grasping).

Everyone in samsara eventually becomes enlightened through realizing the full truth of the dharma, well apart from any expression we can give to it. Now just happens to be the best time, because systematized teachings are here and we're making hay while the sun shines.
True, of course, but in the meantime “loving what is lovable and hating what is hateful” is a still a function of our unexamined ignorance.
In chapter 9 Shantideva wrote:135cd. But if results exist within their cause,
Those who eat their food consume their excrement.

136. And likewise with the money they would spend on clothing,
Let them rather buy the cotton grains to wear!
“But,” you say, “the world is ignorant and blind.
For this is taught by ‘those who know the truth.’”

137. This knowledge must be present in the worldly too!
And if they have it, why do they not see?
If now you say that what the worldly see has no validity,
This means that what they clearly see is false.
:stirthepot:
The truth of existence will wait for our attention for as long as we need. :meditate:
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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bokki
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by bokki » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:08 pm

The fact is all beings have been our mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, friends, and enemies in countless lifetimes.
thank u all for these very intriguing thoughts. i find it very amusing that a streptococcus or rhino virus or mosquito or cockroach in this lifetime was a parent to me once. i must have some really bad karma, ill try to respect and cherish Escherichia the next time i see her.

say, if a wolf attacks your cow, and wants to eat it,
are you going to say,
''please, mother, dont do that, you know i love and respect you.''

?
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

kausalya
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by kausalya » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:24 pm

bokki wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:08 pm
The fact is all beings have been our mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, friends, and enemies in countless lifetimes.
thank u all for these very intriguing thoughts. i find it very amusing that a streptococcus or rhino virus or mosquito or cockroach in this lifetime was a parent to me once. i must have some really bad karma, ill try to respect and cherish Escherichia the next time i see her.

say, if a wolf attacks your cow, and wants to eat it,
are you going to say,
''please, mother, dont do that, you know i love and respect you.''

?
You forgive the wolf for acting in ignorance, & you take steps to prevent it from causing harm, on the basis that it can't control its current form or the state of its mind.

The instincts of the wolf don't invalidate its claim to universal compassion. It has been your mother in the past, only it isn't now, and you have to mother it yourself.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by Virgo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:28 pm

bokki wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:08 pm
The fact is all beings have been our mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, friends, and enemies in countless lifetimes.
thank u all for these very intriguing thoughts. i find it very amusing that a streptococcus or rhino virus or mosquito or cockroach in this lifetime was a parent to me once. i must have some really bad karma, ill try to respect and cherish Escherichia the next time i see her.
No, you have extremely good karma, unimaginably good. You have everything you need to attain enlightenment available to you in this lifetime.
bokki wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:08 pm
say, if a wolf attacks your cow, and wants to eat it,
are you going to say,
''please, mother, dont do that, you know i love and respect you.''

?
The wolf doesn't understand those concepts.

Kevin...

muni
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by muni » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:15 am

boddhicitta will raise you up every morning, not the other way round..
Medicine for freedom from I can - I cannot, I have - I have not...

:namaste:
:meditate:

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bokki
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Re: Bodhicitta is fleeting...

Post by bokki » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:17 am

very, very interesting, for me, ideas and the whole thread, thnx all.
we are talking about bodhicitta, the will for enlightenment, here and by that topic, also, about compassion.
imo, only in my opinion, all and everything , from little quarks, electrons, protons, molecules
cells, organisms, are a representation and result of bodhicitta.
i am surely wrong about that and i aM open to hear other, more precise thoughts about bodhicitta.

but, hey kausalya,
You forgive the wolf for acting in ignorance, & you take steps to prevent it from causing harm, on the basis that it can't control its current form or the state of its mind.
hmm, you forgive it? for being a wolf? or for being ones mother?
and what are these steps that one should take? please be precise, if the mods allow it...
what would be compassionate, in the view of bodhicitta, to a wolf that wants to eat your cow?

you certainly know, the world is full of such, much worse examples.
hypothetically only, if a rabid wolf, appears in front of ones family,
what compassion will one use..
while forgiving the frothing and foaming at the mouth wolf?
will one think of mothers, compassion and bodhicitta?

i hope not.

well, i ask these things, as it is quite important to me that we stay true to the words of the teachings,
which sometimes make startling , should i say, confusing, ideas.

how is a worm , now, ever ones mother, my friends?
are you really so literal in your reading of the teachings?
hmm.

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