What is reborn after death?

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Sentient Light
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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Sentient Light » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:12 am

I am highly skeptical that the gandharva has much of anyhting to do with the antarabhava, other than being co-present. Even Theravadin monastics are in dispute over the idea, with the ones studying the EBTs like Bhikkhu Analayo having concluded that an antarabhava is a clear premise in the foundation of the earliest teachings. So I don't think we even need to posit whether the antarabhava and gandharva are related to one another, the same thing, whatever else. It has been increasingly clear that the doctrinal position that there is no antarabhava is a later addition and a product of revisionism.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:13 am

Sentient Light wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:12 am
I am highly skeptical that the gandharva has much of anyhting to do with the antarabhava, other than being co-present.
What do you mean by this?
如無為、如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

Sentient Light
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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Sentient Light » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:57 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:13 am
Sentient Light wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:12 am
I am highly skeptical that the gandharva has much of anyhting to do with the antarabhava, other than being co-present.
What do you mean by this?
There is no good evidence that the gandharva is either the intermediate existence or an intermediate being. It is simply described as a thing that is necessarily present during the rebirth process, but otherwise appears to be an independent concept from the antarabhava.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:38 am

Sentient Light wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:57 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:13 am
Sentient Light wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:12 am
I am highly skeptical that the gandharva has much of anyhting to do with the antarabhava, other than being co-present.
What do you mean by this?
There is no good evidence that the gandharva is either the intermediate existence or an intermediate being. It is simply described as a thing that is necessarily present during the rebirth process, but otherwise appears to be an independent concept from the antarabhava.
I don't think this holds water in Mahāyāna. This sounds more like my thought experiment on DhammaWheel, where the gandharva is like a "virtual particle".

Why do you say it appears to be an "independent concept from the antarabhava"?
如無為、如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Vasana
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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Vasana » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:38 pm

I'm trying to understand whether hope/fear of a good/bad rebirth is logical or not when not falling in to eternalist or nihlist views.

To think that this current self identity with it's psychological make-up experiences a good/bad rebirth is an eternalist view as far as I know. Do heaven/hell beings exist in the same form they had in the preceding lives or the form appropriated in the intermediate state? If they do and there is no lapses of self-identification, then perhaps hope or fear would be warranted but if new bodies are taken and a lapse in identification ensues, can the experiencer of those fruits really be said to be the same as the one who sowed the seeds?

Considering most people and even some accomplished beings do not remember previous rebirths, is it still correct to say that 'we have experienced this' or 'we will experience that'? I'm trying to find where the limits of convention meet the actual lived experience of future happiness/suffering here. any help?
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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LastLegend
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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by LastLegend » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:49 pm

Lotus891 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:37 pm
Buddhism teaches us about Anatta. But what reborns then, if there is no Atta? Conciousness (vijñāna-skandha)?
Consciousness that is unclean.
None discriminating nature.

Seeker12
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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Seeker12 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:44 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:38 am
Sentient Light wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:57 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:13 am
What do you mean by this?
There is no good evidence that the gandharva is either the intermediate existence or an intermediate being. It is simply described as a thing that is necessarily present during the rebirth process, but otherwise appears to be an independent concept from the antarabhava.
I don't think this holds water in Mahāyāna. This sounds more like my thought experiment on DhammaWheel, where the gandharva is like a "virtual particle".

Why do you say it appears to be an "independent concept from the antarabhava"?
From Mipham’s Khenjuk. ‘Scent eaters’ is a reference to gandharvas.

"Hell beings, gods, and [beings in] the intermediate existence take rebirth instantaneously. Hungry ghosts, for the most part, are instantaneously born, but some also take birth from a womb.
There are four occasions: birth existence; preceding existence, which is what follows [birth and lasts] until the arrival of death; death existence; and intermediate existence.
[8,44] What does 'intermediate existence' mean? For all sentient beings, except those who have been reborn in the formless realms, it is the period after dying which lasts, regardless of where one will be reborn, from the ceasing of the previous existence until the actual rebirth in the next life.
In this state, the sentient being possesses a mentally created body endowed with all the sense faculties. He is unhindered by objects, such as mountains and rocks, and experiences magical karmic displays. Such beings belong to the class of 'scent-eaters'.
The shape of such a being's body possesses the likeness of his previous life, though it is also said to take on the guise of the coming rebirth. Moreover, it is taught [in the scriptures] that, due to the power of former habitual tendencies, at first the body seems to resemble one's previous body. Later on, this[form] grows unclear and appears in the shape of the [body of the] next life.
The life span is said to be, at the longest, 49 days. Each week, birth follows death like [the swing of] the armature on a scale.
[8.45] The scriptures of the shravakas mention that, once the intermediate existence has taken place, there is no turning back from where one will take rebirth. The Mahayana scriptures state that that [particular] rebirth can be averted when the right conditions are present.
[8.46] It is said that the color [of the body experienced in the intermediate state] resembles black cloth or pitch-black darkness if one is to take birth in the lower realms, and resembles white cotton cloth or moonlight if one is to take birth in the higher realms.
[8,47] It is also said that, without any forewarning, various karmic experiences occur during this state and that karma can be created [during the intermediate state].
[8,48] Who can see these [beings in the intermediate state]? Being who will take birth within a similar class can see one another. They can, in addition, be seen with the divine eye resulting from meditation that is free from the eleven defects, such as lethargy, sleep, excitement, doubt, mental pain, and so forth."
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra

smcj
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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by smcj » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:53 am

:good:
LastLegend wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:49 pm
Lotus891 wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:37 pm
Buddhism teaches us about Anatta. But what reborns then, if there is no Atta? Conciousness (vijñāna-skandha)?
Consciousness that is unclean.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Aemilius
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Re: What is reborn after death?

Post by Aemilius » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:40 pm

The pure consciousness is reborn, or a pure being is reborn. This is a more helpful attitude. It ofcourse is also true, because samsara is empty of reality.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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