The Four Noble Truths are

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:44 pm

stevie wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:35 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:44 pm
Another source on our Buddha discovering an ancient path trod by earlier buddhas.
So we may conclude that it's up to everyone of us to discover 'an ancient path' taking the words of the Buddha as guidance but not confusing his words with this 'ancient path'.
Sure, the Map is never the territory. You're bound to get terribly lost though, if you just throw it out.
There's no hoarding what has vanished,
No piling up for the future;
Those who have been born are standing
Like a seed upon a needle.

-Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:45 pm

stevie wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:35 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:44 pm
Another source on our Buddha discovering an ancient path trod by earlier buddhas.
So we may conclude that it's up to everyone of us to discover 'an ancient path' taking the words of the Buddha as guidance but not confusing his words with this 'ancient path'.
Why you would be 'confused' by our Buddha's teachings being, if not identical in language, but leading to the same liberating result, beats me. Besides the Dharma of words is secondary to the Dharma of experience.

Here are the varieties of terms used for Nirvana, from ch. 8 of the Avatamsaka:
Sons of the Buddha. In this Sahā World, the  Aryas’ truth of the cessation of suffering is sometimes identified with non-contention, sometimes identified with non-submersion, sometimes identified with the absence of intrinsic existence, sometimes identified with the absence of obstacles, sometimes identified with extinction, sometimes identified with having truth as its essence, and sometimes identified with abiding in essential nature.
Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!
Manjushri-namasamgiti

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by stevie » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:58 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:45 pm
stevie wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:35 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:44 pm
Another source on our Buddha discovering an ancient path trod by earlier buddhas.
So we may conclude that it's up to everyone of us to discover 'an ancient path' taking the words of the Buddha as guidance but not confusing his words with this 'ancient path'.
Why you would be 'confused' by our Buddha's teachings being, if not identical in language, but leading to the same liberating result, beats me. Besides the Dharma of words is secondary to the Dharma of experience.
Sorry, but my mind cannot synthesize a consistent meaning of your 1st sentence.
As to your 2nd sentence: Exactly that is what my words intended which means that the Buddha expressed himself using conventional language but has been understood by numerous individuals in numerous ways, all these different ways of understanding having been correct from the perspective of the different individuals.

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:13 am

stevie wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:58 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:45 pm
stevie wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:35 pm

So we may conclude that it's up to everyone of us to discover 'an ancient path' taking the words of the Buddha as guidance but not confusing his words with this 'ancient path'.
Why you would be 'confused' by our Buddha's teachings being, if not identical in language, but leading to the same liberating result, beats me. Besides the Dharma of words is secondary to the Dharma of experience.
Sorry, but my mind cannot synthesize a consistent meaning of your 1st sentence.
As to your 2nd sentence: Exactly that is what my words intended which means that the Buddha expressed himself using conventional language but has been understood by numerous individuals in numerous ways, all these different ways of understanding having been correct from the perspective of the different individuals.
You are needlessly complicating your path stevie. You seemed to write that you can avoid confusion by not considering Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings identical with those of previous buddhas. Any difference in wording is from the buddhas, what a listener interprets is not the meaning of the sutra quote.

Here from another translation are comments by Master Hua, which makes clear (to me anyhow) that CALLED refers to what term a buddha (or bodhisattva) uses in teaching, not what or how a student spins it.
Manjushri Bodhisattva calls out again: DISCIPLES OF THE BUDDHA, IN THIS SAHA WORLD, THE HOLY TRUTH OF THE EXTINCTION OF SUFFERING is known by many names. PERHAPS it is CALLED NON-CONTENTION, that is, it is without fighting or strife. PERHAPS it is CALLED LEAVING FILTH. One separates far from the wearisome dust. PERHAPS it is CALLED STILL QUIESCENCE. To be apart from vexation is “stillness,” to cut off all agony and disasters is “quiescence.”

PERHAPS it is CALLED MARKLESS, that is, the state where one sweeps away all dharmas and separates from all marks. PERHAPS it is CALLED WITHOUT DEMISE. One never falls, or suffers ruin. PERHAPS it is CALLED WITHOUT A SELF-NATURE. All dharmas are without a self-nature. PERHAPS it is CALLED FREEDOM FROM IMPEDIMENTS. This means there is no obstacle of afflictions and no obstacle of what is known. PERHAPS it is CALLED EXTINCTION – extinction of all afflictions. PERHAPS it is CALLED TRUE AND ACTUAL SUBSTANCE. One reaches the original substance of true reality. PERHAPS it is CALLED ABIDING IN THE SELF-NATURE. Since this is the extinction of suffering, one dwells in the self-nature.
Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!
Manjushri-namasamgiti

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by stevie » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:22 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:13 am
stevie wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:58 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:45 pm


Why you would be 'confused' by our Buddha's teachings being, if not identical in language, but leading to the same liberating result, beats me. Besides the Dharma of words is secondary to the Dharma of experience.
Sorry, but my mind cannot synthesize a consistent meaning of your 1st sentence.
As to your 2nd sentence: Exactly that is what my words intended which means that the Buddha expressed himself using conventional language but has been understood by numerous individuals in numerous ways, all these different ways of understanding having been correct from the perspective of the different individuals.
You are needlessly complicating your path stevie.
I can assure you that my 'path' is very very simple. But it seems that our communication is on the verge of getting unnecessary complicated, so we should leave it at that.

Take care.

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by stevie » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:50 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:44 pm
stevie wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:35 pm
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:44 pm
Another source on our Buddha discovering an ancient path trod by earlier buddhas.
So we may conclude that it's up to everyone of us to discover 'an ancient path' taking the words of the Buddha as guidance but not confusing his words with this 'ancient path'.
Sure, the Map is never the territory. You're bound to get terribly lost though, if you just throw it out.
Sure, I cannot throw out the conventional language of the Buddha. That means I take his conventional linguistic expressions as guidance. The meaning corresponding to his words is synthesized by my mind. So my guidance actually originates from my own mind but is dependent on the words of the Buddha.

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Grigoris » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:55 am

stevie wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:35 pm
So we may conclude that it's up to everyone of us to discover 'an ancient path' taking the words of the Buddha as guidance but not confusing his words with this 'ancient path'.
If you want to reinvent the (Dharma) wheel instead of using a perfectly functional one which has been offered to you: go for it!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Orgyen » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:06 pm

When cured already found , just swallow it .
Doubt is necessary though . Through investigation doubt is cleared then faith come . Faith perseverance mindfulness concentration wisdom .

Only1in a million if to achieve liberation without a teacher guidance .

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Grigoris » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:48 pm

Orgyen wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:06 pm
When cured already found , just swallow it .
Doubt is necessary though . Through investigation doubt is cleared then faith come . Faith perseverance mindfulness concentration wisdom .

Only1in a million if to achieve liberation without a teacher guidance .
Doubt is not necessary. Quite the contrary, it is faith that is necessary.

On the negative nature of doubt from the Abhidharmasamuccaya:
[7] What is wisdom (prajna)? It is investigation of the
qualities (dharma) of the object to be investigated. Its function
consists of excluding doubt (samsaya).
...
[22] What is ignorance (avidya)? It is absence of knowledge
(ajnana) with regard to the three realms of existence
(traidbatuka). Its function is to give a basis to the appearance of
defilements, mistaken decisions and doubts concerning the
teachings (dharma).
...
That which should be abandoned by means of vision
should be understood as imaginary defiled false views {parikalpitd
klista drstih), doubt (yicikitsa), the basis of false view
(drstistbana), no matter which defilements, major or minor,
perverse compared to false views (drstau vipratipannah
klesopaklesdb), no matter which physical or vocal action caused
by false views and all the aggregates, elements and spheres
leading to bad destinies (apayika).
...
[viij What is the fetter of scepticism (vicikitsa-samyojana)?
It is perplexity with respect to the Truths. He who is fettered
by scepticism has doubts with respect to the Jewels of the
Buddha, his Teaching (dharma) and the Community (safigha),
and does not behave correctly towards the Three Jewels (ratnatrayd).
Not behaving correctly towards the Three Jewrels, he
performs unfavorable actions and does not perform favorable
actions. Thus, engendering future suffering, he is fettered by
suffering.
...
Etc...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Viach
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Viach » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:51 am

Astus wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:42 am
Viach wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:41 am
Did Buddha practice Four Noble Truths or did he simply discover them as a result of his practice?
"And, monks, as long as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this — my three-round, twelve-permutation knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths as they have come to be — was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its deities, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
(Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta)
"arose in me" So 4NT is the result of practice. Only the result could arise.

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Viach » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:21 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:55 am
stevie wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:35 pm
So we may conclude that it's up to everyone of us to discover 'an ancient path' taking the words of the Buddha as guidance but not confusing his words with this 'ancient path'.
If you want to reinvent the (Dharma) wheel instead of using a perfectly functional one which has been offered to you: go for it!
Yes, we reopen. Just as we rediscover Ohm’s law, Newton's laws, etc. in laboratory classes at school, similarly, we rediscover 4NT in our Buddhist yoga practice. The difference is that scientific truths can be used without even rediscovering them (since ordinary science is a 3rd person science), and yogic truths cannot be (since yoga is a 1st person science).

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Astus » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:37 am

Viach wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:51 am
"arose in me" So 4NT is the result of practice. Only the result could arise.
All four truths have "three rounds": view, practice, result. In that order are they to be fully realised.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Grigoris » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:53 am

Viach wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:21 am
Yes, we reopen. Just as we rediscover Ohm’s law, Newton's laws, etc. in laboratory classes at school, similarly, we rediscover 4NT in our Buddhist yoga practice. The difference is that scientific truths can be used without even rediscovering them (since ordinary science is a 3rd person science), and yogic truths cannot be (since yoga is a 1st person science).
No.

If that was the case then we need to throw all the scriptures, Sutta, Sutra, Tantra and commentaries in the rubbish bin.

Of course we need to apply, practice and realise them, but not that we need to rediscover them (again).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Viach
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Viach » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:05 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:53 am
Viach wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:21 am
Yes, we reopen. Just as we rediscover Ohm’s law, Newton's laws, etc. in laboratory classes at school, similarly, we rediscover 4NT in our Buddhist yoga practice. The difference is that scientific truths can be used without even rediscovering them (since ordinary science is a 3rd person science), and yogic truths cannot be (since yoga is a 1st person science).
No.

If that was the case then we need to throw all the scriptures, Sutta, Sutra, Tantra and commentaries in the rubbish bin.
Why not? Having done the laboratory work (becoming a buddha), we no longer need textbooks (sutras) and we can actually throw them out (or pass them on to the next generation of students).

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by Grigoris » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:07 am

Viach wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:05 am
Why not? Having done the laboratory work (becoming a buddha), we no longer need textbooks (sutras) and we can actually throw them out (or pass them on to the next generation of students).
You (and I) are not a Buddha. Until then...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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KeithA
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by KeithA » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:08 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:48 pm
Orgyen wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:06 pm
When cured already found , just swallow it .
Doubt is necessary though . Through investigation doubt is cleared then faith come . Faith perseverance mindfulness concentration wisdom .

Only1in a million if to achieve liberation without a teacher guidance .
Doubt is not necessary. Quite the contrary, it is faith that is necessary.

On the negative nature of doubt from the Abhidharmasamuccaya:
[7] What is wisdom (prajna)? It is investigation of the
qualities (dharma) of the object to be investigated. Its function
consists of excluding doubt (samsaya).
...
[22] What is ignorance (avidya)? It is absence of knowledge
(ajnana) with regard to the three realms of existence
(traidbatuka). Its function is to give a basis to the appearance of
defilements, mistaken decisions and doubts concerning the
teachings (dharma).
...
That which should be abandoned by means of vision
should be understood as imaginary defiled false views {parikalpitd
klista drstih), doubt (yicikitsa), the basis of false view
(drstistbana), no matter which defilements, major or minor,
perverse compared to false views (drstau vipratipannah
klesopaklesdb), no matter which physical or vocal action caused
by false views and all the aggregates, elements and spheres
leading to bad destinies (apayika).
...
[viij What is the fetter of scepticism (vicikitsa-samyojana)?
It is perplexity with respect to the Truths. He who is fettered
by scepticism has doubts with respect to the Jewels of the
Buddha, his Teaching (dharma) and the Community (safigha),
and does not behave correctly towards the Three Jewels (ratnatrayd).
Not behaving correctly towards the Three Jewrels, he
performs unfavorable actions and does not perform favorable
actions. Thus, engendering future suffering, he is fettered by
suffering.
...
Etc...
Very interesting. In Zen, or at least half of Zen, doubt is considered essential. I have always thought that was the wrong word, though. Doubt in the Zen sense does not mean skepticism at all.
Rather, it is a deep sense of inquiry. It strikes me as rather difficult to practice on the basis of pure faith alone. Different strokes, I suppose.

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by haha » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:23 pm

KeithA wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:08 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:48 pm
Orgyen wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:06 pm
When cured already found , just swallow it .
Doubt is necessary though . Through investigation doubt is cleared then faith come . Faith perseverance mindfulness concentration wisdom .

Only1in a million if to achieve liberation without a teacher guidance .
Doubt is not necessary. Quite the contrary, it is faith that is necessary.

On the negative nature of doubt from the Abhidharmasamuccaya:
[7] What is wisdom (prajna)? It is investigation of the
qualities (dharma) of the object to be investigated. Its function
consists of excluding doubt (samsaya).
...
[22] What is ignorance (avidya)? It is absence of knowledge
(ajnana) with regard to the three realms of existence
(traidbatuka). Its function is to give a basis to the appearance of
defilements, mistaken decisions and doubts concerning the
teachings (dharma).
...
That which should be abandoned by means of vision
should be understood as imaginary defiled false views {parikalpitd
klista drstih), doubt (yicikitsa), the basis of false view
(drstistbana), no matter which defilements, major or minor,
perverse compared to false views (drstau vipratipannah
klesopaklesdb), no matter which physical or vocal action caused
by false views and all the aggregates, elements and spheres
leading to bad destinies (apayika).
...
[viij What is the fetter of scepticism (vicikitsa-samyojana)?
It is perplexity with respect to the Truths. He who is fettered
by scepticism has doubts with respect to the Jewels of the
Buddha, his Teaching (dharma) and the Community (safigha),
and does not behave correctly towards the Three Jewels (ratnatrayd).
Not behaving correctly towards the Three Jewrels, he
performs unfavorable actions and does not perform favorable
actions. Thus, engendering future suffering, he is fettered by
suffering.
...
Etc...
Very interesting. In Zen, or at least half of Zen, doubt is considered essential. I have always thought that was the wrong word, though. Doubt in the Zen sense does not mean skepticism at all.
Rather, it is a deep sense of inquiry. It strikes me as rather difficult to practice on the basis of pure faith alone. Different strokes, I suppose.
Probably in the Zen sense what one is considering “doubt” could not be exact as Vicikitsa. That doubt has the meaning of mimamsa (Examination) or dharmapravicaya (Investigation).

Incomplete faculties do not bring right knowledge. The complete faculties mean sraddhā, vīrya, smṛti, samādhi and prajnā in balance level; not in the way, one is higher and another lower.

stevie
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by stevie » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:05 pm

KeithA wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:08 am
Very interesting. In Zen, or at least half of Zen, doubt is considered essential. I have always thought that was the wrong word, though. Doubt in the Zen sense does not mean skepticism at all.
Rather, it is a deep sense of inquiry. It strikes me as rather difficult to practice on the basis of pure faith alone. Different strokes, I suppose.
From my perspective inquiry entails pure faith, i.e. analysis purifies faith.

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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by KeithA » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:26 pm

stevie wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:05 pm
KeithA wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:08 am
Very interesting. In Zen, or at least half of Zen, doubt is considered essential. I have always thought that was the wrong word, though. Doubt in the Zen sense does not mean skepticism at all.
Rather, it is a deep sense of inquiry. It strikes me as rather difficult to practice on the basis of pure faith alone. Different strokes, I suppose.
From my perspective inquiry entails pure faith, i.e. analysis purifies faith.
I can see that. This is all semantics anyway. In my tradition, we talk of Great Question (doubt), Great Faith and Great Effort as necessary ingredients for Zen practice. I am sure there are many ways to say the same thing differently. :)

stevie
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Re: The Four Noble Truths are

Post by stevie » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:33 pm

KeithA wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:26 pm
I am sure there are many ways to say the same thing differently. :)
And that's wonderful, isn't it?
Thank you.

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