How many times did the Buddha set forth 4BI in 46 years of preaching?

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Viach
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How many times did the Buddha set forth 4BI in 46 years of preaching?

Post by Viach » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:07 am

Buddha preached 46 years. I suppose that the Four Noble Truths for so many years of preaching have been stated many times. But only a few came into the canon. How can this be explained? What was the selection principle? Is the canon (second basket) a collection of all the Buddha’s sayings or a collection of selected speeches? Or a collection of options summarizing different versions?

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Grigoris
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Re: How many times did the Buddha set forth 4BI in 46 years of preaching?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:38 am

Viach wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:07 am
Buddha preached 46 years. I suppose that the Four Noble Truths for so many years of preaching have been stated many times. But only a few came into the canon. How can this be explained? What was the selection principle? Is the canon (second basket) a collection of all the Buddha’s sayings or a collection of selected speeches? Or a collection of options summarizing different versions?
Let me just jump into my time machine and fetch the answer for you...

Might I ask: What tradition do you practice in, and who is your teacher?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Orgyen
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Re: How many times did the Buddha set forth 4BI in 46 years of preaching?

Post by Orgyen » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:35 pm

Viach wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:07 am
Buddha preached 46 years. I suppose that the Four Noble Truths for so many years of preaching have been stated many times. But only a few came into the canon. How can this be explained? What was the selection principle? Is the canon (second basket) a collection of all the Buddha’s sayings or a collection of selected speeches? Or a collection of options summarizing different versions?
Four noble truth is the main principle teaching ,
to walk the path is following the
Noble Eight Fold Path .
12 dependent origination is the expansion of the four noble truth .
The meditation method is the
7 factor of enlightenment .
The faculties to develop is
four right efforts ,
four foundation of mindfulness ,
four bases of spiritual skill ,
five faculty and five power .
Overall , it is called 37 factor of enlightenment .

The five skandhas is the compression of 12 nidana links .

I hope this helps a little .

Orgyen
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Re: How many times did the Buddha set forth 4BI in 46 years of preaching?

Post by Orgyen » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:38 pm

Edit: the five aggregates(skhandas) is not to be considered a being .

Sentient Light
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Re: How many times did the Buddha set forth 4BI in 46 years of preaching?

Post by Sentient Light » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:37 pm

The canon is very explicitly a selection. It is recorded that some teachings were not kept in the canon, and then different lineages began to curate and organize what they had in different ways. In all likelihood, the 4NT (despite what tradition claims) probably came later on, maybe in the middle of the Buddha's career rather than the beginning, and was developed as a mnemonic device to encapsulate the teachings.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

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Grigoris
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Re: How many times did the Buddha set forth 4BI in 46 years of preaching?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:43 pm

Sentient Light wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:37 pm
The canon is very explicitly a selection. It is recorded that some teachings were not kept in the canon, and then different lineages began to curate and organize what they had in different ways. In all likelihood, the 4NT (despite what tradition claims) probably came later on, maybe in the middle of the Buddha's career rather than the beginning, and was developed as a mnemonic device to encapsulate the teachings.
Apparently it was his first teaching ever.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Sentient Light
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Re: How many times did the Buddha set forth 4BI in 46 years of preaching?

Post by Sentient Light » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:46 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:43 pm
Apparently it was his first teaching ever.
Yes, that is what the tradition states. I am saying this is likely not what happened, as the 4NT shows some signs of gradual development.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

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Astus
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Re: How many times did the Buddha set forth 4BI in 46 years of preaching?

Post by Astus » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:00 am

Sentient Light wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:37 pm
The canon is very explicitly a selection. It is recorded that some teachings were not kept in the canon, and then different lineages began to curate and organize what they had in different ways. In all likelihood, the 4NT (despite what tradition claims) probably came later on, maybe in the middle of the Buddha's career rather than the beginning, and was developed as a mnemonic device to encapsulate the teachings.
What do you base those claims on?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Sentient Light
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Re: How many times did the Buddha set forth 4BI in 46 years of preaching?

Post by Sentient Light » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:11 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:00 am
Sentient Light wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:37 pm
The canon is very explicitly a selection. It is recorded that some teachings were not kept in the canon, and then different lineages began to curate and organize what they had in different ways. In all likelihood, the 4NT (despite what tradition claims) probably came later on, maybe in the middle of the Buddha's career rather than the beginning, and was developed as a mnemonic device to encapsulate the teachings.
What do you base those claims on?
First, the context of the 4NT seems to be used inconsistently in the EBTs, particularly in their relation to the dhyanas. I should note first that I am not a proponent of the “Two Paths” theory that scholars like Alexander Wynne have put forth, but I do think the examples of the dhyana sequence into the 4NTs as the culmination of insight looks to be a case of expansion, rather than redaction. This would suggest that the 4NT schema was developed (to maturity at least) at a later point, and then rolled into the dhyana sequences.

Second, the 4NT as it is written in Buddha’s alleged first sermon relies on previous knowledge of the aggregates, since they are explicitly referenced in the first Truth. While skandhas weren’t exactly new at the time, we see the term in Jainism used in a very different context and not referring at all to what the Buddha discusses, so to casually drop the word “skandha” and assume the others knew what he meant would suggest that he had already illustrated to them what his model for the aggregates was.

I do think the narrative is legit—it seems too specific to be made up, and the basic structure of it appears in some of the earliest texts we can discern—but I am doubtful that the 4NT, at least as we are presented them in that sermon at Deer Park, was delivered as such. Perhaps something close to it, but if I were to hazard a guess, his first sermon was probably on the aggregates and anatman, and the 4NT entered into the discourse as a short-hand substitution.

This is jsut speculation, and I don't think it matters ultimately, since I think the text states the truth either way, I'm just stating that I don't think the stock formulation of the 4NTs as we have it today is very likely to be the original sermon he gave.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

ItsRaining
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Re: How many times did the Buddha set forth 4BI in 46 years of preaching?

Post by ItsRaining » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:16 am

The Four Truths section of the Avatamsaka Sutra tells of the infinite ways various Buddha’s refer to the Four Truths sometimes without using this specific term, so the Buddha could have implicitly taught it at deer park without his later formation of the structure of he Four Truths right?

Sentient Light
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Re: How many times did the Buddha set forth 4BI in 46 years of preaching?

Post by Sentient Light » Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:17 am

Yes, I'm only saying that the specific formulation of the 4NT is probably not what was delivered at Deer Park. Rather, I think the 4NT captures the spirit of that first sermon, which was probably a lot longer.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

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