Laymen who attain arhantship must enter the Order or attain parinirvana

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Bristollad
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Re: Laymen who attain arhantship must enter the Order or attain parinirvana

Post by Bristollad » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:31 am

jmlee369 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:25 am
The notion of a bodhisattva pitaka with bodhisattva precepts as a pratimoksha has roots in the Indian tradition,, for example Asanga refers to it in his Bodhisattvabhumi.
I haven't seen it. Could you provide the quote or its location?

Seeker12
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Re: Laymen who attain arhantship must enter the Order or attain parinirvana

Post by Seeker12 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:43 pm

prsvrnc wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:03 am
I am reading the Milinda Panha, or, “The Debate of King Milinda”. Why do the below passages say that when a layman attains arhantship he must either enter the Order or pass away? How do liberated arhats living in this conventional world get by and survive (if not a trust fund)?
If you're inclined, I might throw out the suggestion of "Perfect Conduct" by Ngari Panchen Pema Wangyal, commentary by Dudjom Rinpoche.

In general, if I might give my own commentary, I might say that initially 'ordination' was something that would be basically immediately received, and the rules and regulations which crept up were not there. There's sort of the 'essential' ordination and the 'elaborate' ordination, if you will.

In the book, it is said that a lay awareness-holder does not need to follow the external aspects of the established Vinaya in the sense that one must not shave their head, etc, but the essential aspects of the Vinaya must be followed. More or less. IMO, the Vinaya is far more subtle of a topic than people make it out to be, sometimes it seems.
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra Shastra

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Aemilius
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Re: Laymen who attain arhantship must enter the Order or attain parinirvana

Post by Aemilius » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:34 pm

" It is only through the citations made by Santideva in his Siksasamuccaya and Bodhicaryavatara that we are aware of the existence of a Bodhisattva-Pratimoksa-sutra. Very likely it is this Sutra that corresponds to the Chinese Sutra no. 1500 Pu-sa-chih-pen) of the Taisho edition of the Chinese Tripitaka (vol. xxiv) which treats of Parajika and such other offence falling within the scope of a pratimoksa-sutra. The only other Mahayanic book that can be treated as a Pratimoksa-sutra is the Chinese brahmajala Sutra, of which we have a French translation (Le code du Mahayana en Chine) by De Groot. "

From: Bodhisattva Pratimoksha Sutra (Sanskrit Sutra), by Dr. Nalinaksa Dutta; in Buddhist Himalaya: A Journal of Nagarjuna Institute of Exact Methods
Vol. VII No. I & II (1996)
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

Bristollad
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Re: Laymen who attain arhantship must enter the Order or attain parinirvana

Post by Bristollad » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:05 am

Aemilius wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:34 pm
" It is only through the citations made by Santideva in his Siksasamuccaya and Bodhicaryavatara that we are aware of the existence of a Bodhisattva-Pratimoksa-sutra. Very likely it is this Sutra that corresponds to the Chinese Sutra no. 1500 Pu-sa-chih-pen) of the Taisho edition of the Chinese Tripitaka (vol. xxiv) which treats of Parajika and such other offence falling within the scope of a pratimoksa-sutra. The only other Mahayanic book that can be treated as a Pratimoksa-sutra is the Chinese brahmajala Sutra, of which we have a French translation (Le code du Mahayana en Chine) by De Groot. "

From: Bodhisattva Pratimoksha Sutra (Sanskrit Sutra), by Dr. Nalinaksa Dutta; in Buddhist Himalaya: A Journal of Nagarjuna Institute of Exact Methods
Vol. VII No. I & II (1996)
Dr Dutt was a distinguished scholar but he passed away aged 80 in 1973. His principal work Aspects of Mahayana Buddhism and its Relation to Hinayana was published in 1930. Your quote from the paper in the journal (republished or published posthumously in 1996) does not provide the citations he claims for Shantideva, it merely makes the claim that a Bodhisattva-Pratimoksa-sutra is cited. I've not read the Siksasamuccaya but am reasonably familiar with the Bodhicaryavatara - I haven't noticed these citations. Please indicate in which chapter (at least) I can look for them.

My understanding is that the Pratimoksa precepts are precepts of restraint (principally of actions of body and speech) which has the goal of individual liberation. Bodhisattva vows are concerned with the goal of the Mahayana - the removal of the suffering of all sentients, and the achievement of full enlightenment as the method to achieve that goal. Though the Pratimoksa precepts (either as a layperson or monastic) are a suitable preparation for Bodhisattva vows, they are not the same. For instance, when pratimoksa precepts are taken, the promise is to hold them for this life whereas when we take the Bodhisattva vows, we promise to practise the path of the bodhisattva until we are enlightened and so able to help all sentient beings.

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Aemilius
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Re: Laymen who attain arhantship must enter the Order or attain parinirvana

Post by Aemilius » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:31 am

I don't know which lines or verses contain quotations in Shantideva's text. There is an english translation of the manuscript of Bodhisattva Pratimoksha Sutra, that Dr Dutt mentions. Translation is by E. J. Thomas, originally published in 1952. It is only five pages long, but very interesting. Basing on it, a lot of things in Shantideva could be quotations.
I have Ulrich Pagel's book about the Bodhisattva Pitaka, it is a sutra included in the Ratnakuta collection of sutras. Ulrich Pagel has translated only one chapter of the Bodhisattva Pitaka, there are synopsies of the other chapters, altogether ten chapters.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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Aemilius
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Re: Laymen who attain arhantship must enter the Order or attain parinirvana

Post by Aemilius » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:30 pm

A sanskrit commentary on Bodhicaryavatara, called Bodhicaryavatara-panjika written by Prajnakaramati, is extant. It could be the origin for the information about quotations in Bcav.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

Bristollad
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Re: Laymen who attain arhantship must enter the Order or attain parinirvana

Post by Bristollad » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:16 am

I found online a copy of the paper from Dr Dutt that’s been quoted from. In it, he seems very clear that manuscript though self-named as a pratimoksa, should not properly be thought to be one nor is it connected to what Shantideva cited:
At the Library of the cambridge University, there is an manuscript entitled Bodhisattva Pratimoksa Sutra in the collection made by Bendall from Nepal. Through the courtesy of Dr.E.J.thomas I have been able to take a rotograph of the manuscript. It contains only ten leaves with six lines in each page, the size of her leaves in 10 inches by 2 inches. the right-hand end of almost every leaf is so much damaged that the last word of almost each line is either lost or illegible, In the appended edition have supplied the words as far as possible in the light of their Chines e translations where available ass also of their context, and the manner of wording usual in the Buddhist Sanskrit texts.

In line 1 of the last leaf (obverse side) of the ms., we find "Iti Bodhisattva-Pratimoksah" (see the attached plate) showing that the writer wanted to call the works a Bodhisattva Pratimoksa Sutra. Whatever may be the writer's intention, it is evident from the contents that the present manuscript has very little to do with the Bodhisattva Pratimoksa Sutra cited in the works of Santideva.

The Present Manuscript

This manuscript is divided into two parts, of which the first is intended to serve as a manual of the initiation to devotees, lay or recluse, into the Mahayanic rules of discipline, and the second is a dissertation on the apattis (offences) and anapattis (non-offencdes) of a Bodhisattva, the whole manuscript is really a compilation of extracts from different works, two of which evidently are the Bodhisattvabhumi and the Ujpalipariprcchasutra. The citations from the Bodhisattvabhumi appear in the first part and have been marked in the appended texts. the upalipariprcchasutra commences from leaf 5 (reverse side-see the attached plate). Judging by the contents, the first part should be called a Karmavakya, corresponding go the Kammavacam of the Burmese and Ceylonese Buddhists, and not a pratimoksa Sutra, the second part being a supplement ot it The first part corresponds roughly to the first chapter (Ordination service) of the Kammavacam, detailing the formalities through which a candidate is to pass to undertake the discipline of a Bodhisattva. I the Bodhicaryavatara we have an account of 5theceremony of initiation of a Bodhisattva but it is written not in the characterstic form and style of manual of initiation-the form ands style in which the present ms. is written. I is in this manuscript that we of the first time come across the formal request and announcements necessary for the initiation of a devotee into the Mahayanic rules of discipline, and I think, this is the earliest book of its kind so far discovered.
Found here: http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT ... 117539.htm

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Aemilius
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Re: Laymen who attain arhantship must enter the Order or attain parinirvana

Post by Aemilius » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:19 am

Yes, I have read the article, the whole of it. If you read the short text called Mahayana Pratimoksha Sutra however, it is clear that is stylistically and by its ethos much closer to Shantideva than to a sravakayana work. Dr Dutt certainly does not say that the short text is unconnected to the Mahayana Pratimoksha tradition, or that Shantideva's works are unconnected to a Mahayana Pratimoksha tradition. The short text is obviously derived from a much larger work, it is a text for the Bodhisattva ordination ceremony or Karmavakya, as Dr Dutt says. We can take it for granted that a larger and more complete Mahayana Parimoksha tradition has existed, and what we now have are fragments from it.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

Bristollad
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Re: Laymen who attain arhantship must enter the Order or attain parinirvana

Post by Bristollad » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:02 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:19 am
We can take it for granted that a larger and more complete Mahayana Parimoksha tradition has existed, and what we now have are fragments from it.
That is your contention - I have yet to see any evidence for it.

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Aemilius
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Re: Laymen who attain arhantship must enter the Order or attain parinirvana

Post by Aemilius » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:23 am

Vasubandhu puts it concisely: Mahayana is not brahmanism or hinduism, it is clearly Buddhism, it has not been taught by another Buddha, it was taught by the same Buddha, Shakyamuni Gautama.
in his commentary on Asanga's Mahayana Sutra Alamkara
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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