Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

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Viach
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Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Viach » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:38 am

What happens in terms of the law of karma when we confront our deserved bad karma? Do we worsen our karma even more in this case?
  For example, someone is trying to rob us. He was robbed by us in forgiving lives. And it seems that we should put up with a fair (from the point of view of the law of karma) robbery. It turns out, confronting the robber, I do not allow my bad karma to be exhausted. Is it good?

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明安 Myoan
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by 明安 Myoan » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:54 am

"Deserve" has nothing to do with it. Sentient beings deserve to be free from suffering and attain buddhahood.
This is why Shakyamuni compassionately taught the Second, Third, and Fourth Noble Truths.

As for meeting suffering and responding to it, that's essentially the daily practice, isn't it?
It's why patience is a Paramita, why perseverance is a Factor of Enlightenment, why equanimity is one of the Four Immeasurables.

For turning adversity into benefit for self and others, the lojong slogans are very useful.
For purifying past negative karma, nothing exceeds rousing bodhicitta.
With a heart wandering in ignorance down this path and that, to guide me I simply say Namu-Amida-Butsu. -- Ippen

The Fundamental Vow [of Amitabha Buddha] is just for such people as woodcutters and grassgatherers, vegetable pickers, drawers of water and the like, illiterate folk who merely recite the Buddha's name wholeheartedly, confident that as a result of saying "Namu Amida Butsu" they will be born into the western land. -- Master Hōnen

Viach
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Viach » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:03 am

明安 Myoan wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:54 am
"Deserve" has nothing to do with it. Sentient beings deserve to be free from suffering and attain buddhahood.
This is why Shakyamuni compassionately taught the Second, Third, and Fourth Noble Truths.

As for meeting suffering and responding to it, that's essentially the daily practice, isn't it?
It's why patience is a Paramita, why perseverance is a Factor of Enlightenment, why equanimity is one of the Four Immeasurables.

For turning adversity into benefit for self and others, the lojong slogans are very useful.
For purifying past negative karma, nothing exceeds rousing bodhicitta.
These are all common words. What exactly will you (as a Buddhist) do if you are robbed? :shrug:

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明安 Myoan
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by 明安 Myoan » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:27 am

That depends entirely on you and your practice.

And stated more clearly, karma is not determinism.
With a heart wandering in ignorance down this path and that, to guide me I simply say Namu-Amida-Butsu. -- Ippen

The Fundamental Vow [of Amitabha Buddha] is just for such people as woodcutters and grassgatherers, vegetable pickers, drawers of water and the like, illiterate folk who merely recite the Buddha's name wholeheartedly, confident that as a result of saying "Namu Amida Butsu" they will be born into the western land. -- Master Hōnen

Viach
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Viach » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:37 am

明安 Myoan wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:27 am
That depends entirely on you and your practice.

And stated more clearly, karma is not determinism.
1. What about you?
2. In the long run, of course, not determinism. In the immediate future, of course, determinism.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:35 am

It's impossible to resist it.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

Simon E.
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Simon E. » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:45 am

There is a basic misunderstanding here. There is no “bad” karma.
Karma simply means ‘action’..an action. You lift your arm, that is action...karma. You give a coin to a homeless person that is karma. You shoot a man..that is karma.
All action has a consequence,that is Vipaka..’fruit of action.’. Vipaka can be positive or negative or neutral.

The Vipaka from giving to the homeless is likely to be experienced as positive.The Vipaka from lifting your arm is likely to be neutral. The Vipaka from shooting a man is likely to be experienced as negative.

It’s rather more sophisticated and nuanced than ‘good’ or ‘bad’ karma.

Having created karma, having acted, you can no more resist it than you can resist a ball that you have thrown into the air dropping again.
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Bristollad » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:56 am

Viach wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:37 am

2. In the long run, of course, not determinism. In the immediate future, of course, determinism.
What do you mean by this? Are you saying that how I react to any particular circumstance next week e.g. being robbed, is already determined? If that is what you mean, then I disagree and would argue that is a non-buddhist understanding of karma and its results.

How I would I react to being robbed at knifepoint next week? Probably with fear due to self-grasping, probably with anger due to self-grasping, probably with aversion to giving up my belongings due to self-grasping.

Could I react differently, motivated by compassion and wisdom; of course. And I practise day-by-day in order that when these triggers come I have the mental space to react differently, more wisely more compassionately.

Note: acting based on wisdom and compassion =/= passively allowing oneself to be robbed.

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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Caoimhghín » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:55 pm

Viach wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:38 am
What happens in terms of the law of karma when we confront our deserved bad karma? Do we worsen our karma even more in this case?
  For example, someone is trying to rob us. He was robbed by us in forgiving lives. And it seems that we should put up with a fair (from the point of view of the law of karma) robbery. It turns out, confronting the robber, I do not allow my bad karma to be exhausted. Is it good?
No. You have a robber. That's your karma. Both you and (s)he are caught up in the affair. Notify the authorities and let it play out, unless you don't want to. The theif probably needs help too, more than you, and sometimes the legal system, for all its flaws, is the only thing that is going to hold someone accountable for ill deeds. Whether they interpret this responsibility as atonement or "the man" holding them down is up to them.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

TrimePema
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by TrimePema » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:17 pm

Viach wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:38 am
What happens in terms of the law of karma when we confront our deserved bad karma? Do we worsen our karma even more in this case?
  For example, someone is trying to rob us. He was robbed by us in forgiving lives. And it seems that we should put up with a fair (from the point of view of the law of karma) robbery. It turns out, confronting the robber, I do not allow my bad karma to be exhausted. Is it good?
karma is not a 1 to 1 ratio like that.

Someone robbing you =/= you robbed them in previous lives.

It means you created the karma to be robbed, and they created the karma to rob someone, and by conditions you have met in such a way that that karma will come to fruition as them robbing you in this life.

Karma doesn't exhaust itself by happening. Karma only exhausts itself when you're not making more. Anything you do in this case, including doing nothing, will create more karma, because in this case the proper view of meditation to stop perpetuating suffering is lacking.

dude
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by dude » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:05 am

If I had the means of resisting, for example if the robber had a knife and I had a gun, I'd stop him.
If I had no such means, I might or might not report being robbed.
After the fact, when I'm no longer being threatened, I would accept that it was my karma to be robbed, and do my best not to hold ill will against the robber. Nursing a grudge harms me, not them.

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LastLegend
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by LastLegend » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:20 am

Op,

Sometimes it might be others’ karma lol
Very very clear superbly miraculously clear lol.

Interesting was told that the observer will get to a point it doesn’t know itself, yet there is the only remaining thing that knows.

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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by tkp67 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:04 am

I contemplate how I could have cause to come to know the lotus in this existence. I realized perhaps my belief and action regarding karma might have come into play.

When I was a child I was badly abused so I made a conscious declaration that I would not let bad actions perpetuate past my being. The suffering passed to me I absolutely refused to pass back around. I may have spent much of my life in pain and broken but I still compromised my own needs f

It didn't matter how much it hurt. As I sit here typing this I realize one of those feature that defined me as ill is the same feature that helped set me free.

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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by tatpurusa » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:43 am

Viach wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:38 am
What happens in terms of the law of karma when we confront our deserved bad karma? Do we worsen our karma even more in this case?
  For example, someone is trying to rob us. He was robbed by us in forgiving lives. And it seems that we should put up with a fair (from the point of view of the law of karma) robbery. It turns out, confronting the robber, I do not allow my bad karma to be exhausted. Is it good?
Rule no.1 confronting good or bad karma: do not confuse wisdom and virtuousness with stupidity.

Viach
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Viach » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:01 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:17 pm
Viach wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:38 am
What happens in terms of the law of karma when we confront our deserved bad karma? Do we worsen our karma even more in this case?
  For example, someone is trying to rob us. He was robbed by us in forgiving lives. And it seems that we should put up with a fair (from the point of view of the law of karma) robbery. It turns out, confronting the robber, I do not allow my bad karma to be exhausted. Is it good?
karma is not a 1 to 1 ratio like that.

Someone robbing you =/= you robbed them in previous lives.

It means you created the karma to be robbed, and they created the karma to rob someone, and by conditions you have met in such a way that that karma will come to fruition as them robbing you in this life.

Karma doesn't exhaust itself by happening. Karma only exhausts itself when you're not making more. Anything you do in this case, including doing nothing, will create more karma, because in this case the proper view of meditation to stop perpetuating suffering is lacking.
I have never seen such a vision of karma before. Could you share the links?

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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by TrimePema » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:24 pm

Viach wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:01 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:17 pm
Viach wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:38 am
What happens in terms of the law of karma when we confront our deserved bad karma? Do we worsen our karma even more in this case?
  For example, someone is trying to rob us. He was robbed by us in forgiving lives. And it seems that we should put up with a fair (from the point of view of the law of karma) robbery. It turns out, confronting the robber, I do not allow my bad karma to be exhausted. Is it good?
karma is not a 1 to 1 ratio like that.

Someone robbing you =/= you robbed them in previous lives.

It means you created the karma to be robbed, and they created the karma to rob someone, and by conditions you have met in such a way that that karma will come to fruition as them robbing you in this life.

Karma doesn't exhaust itself by happening. Karma only exhausts itself when you're not making more. Anything you do in this case, including doing nothing, will create more karma, because in this case the proper view of meditation to stop perpetuating suffering is lacking.
I have never seen such a vision of karma before. Could you share the links?
What vision? That karma isn't a 1:1 ratio of "I robbed someone, therefore will be robbed by them in the future?"

From Jewel Ornament of Liberation

2. Stealing
a) Classification of Stealing. There are three types of stealing: taking things by force, taking things secretly, and taking things through deceit. The first one means to rob by force without any reason. The second one means to steal things by breaking into a house without others noticing and so forth. The third one refers to deceit through measurements, scales, and so forth.
b) Three Results of Stealing. “Result of maturation of the act” means that the actor will be born as a hungry ghost. “Result similar to the cause” means that even if the actor is born in the human realm, he will suffer from insufficient wealth. “General result of the force” means that the actor will be born in a place where there is more frost and hail than normal.
c) Distinctive Act of Stealing. Taking wealth belonging to one’s spiritual master or the Three Jewels is very heavy negative karma.

3. Sexual Misconduct
a) Classification of Sexual Misconduct. There are three types of sexual misconduct: protected by the family, protected by the owner, and protected by the Dharma. The first one means sexual misconduct with one’s mother, sister, and so forth. The second one means sexual misconduct with someone owned by a husband or king, and so forth. The third one has five subcategories: even with one’s own wife, sexual misconduct refers to improper parts of the body, improper place, improper time, improper number, and improper behavior. Improper parts of body are the mouth and anus. Improper places are close to the spiritual master, monastery, or stupa, or in a gathering of people. Improper times are during a special retreat,5
when pregnant, while nursing a child, or when there is light. An improper number is more than five times. Improper behavior refers to beating or having intercourse with a male or hermaphrodite in the mouth or anus.
b) Three Results of Sexual Misconduct. “Result of maturation of the act” means that the actor will be born as a hungry ghost. “Result similar to the cause” means that even if the actor is born in the human realm, he will become his enemy’s wife. “General result of the force” means that the actor will be born in a place with more dust than normal.
c) Distinctive Act of Sexual Misconduct. Having intercourse with one’s mother, who is also an Arhat, is very heavy negative karma.


You can see in the part about sexual misconduct's three results that Karma does not work in the 1:1 ratio you have previously described. Any form of sexual misconduct does not equate to having sexual misconduct happen to you in the future. Although, if you become your enemy's wife, and you love your husband, but your husband possesses the phenomena of negative thoughts towards you due to being your enemy in a previous life, then you may find your husband you love cheating on you. It's possible.

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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by dude » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:49 am

is that from a sutra or someone's opinion?

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seeker242
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by seeker242 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:08 pm

How do you know what your "well deserved bad karma" is to begin with?
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

Simon E.
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by Simon E. » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:24 pm

To talk about “deserved” karma is meaningless. No one doles it out from the sky.
That is like talking about “deserved” gravity. If you fall off your chair gravity operates. Deserved or undeserved does not come into it.
You act and the act has consequences. It is impersonal. Like gravity.
“Why don’t you close down your PC for a while and find out who needs your help?”

HH Tai Situ.

tkp67
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Re: Is it worth it to resist your well-deserved bad karma?

Post by tkp67 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:43 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:08 pm
How do you know what your "well deserved bad karma" is to begin with?
remorse regarding actions that gave rise to unreasonable pain and suffering that where not understood at the time they occurred yet the causation of which some time after cannot be denied.

A father abandoning a child for selfish reasons who later on realized the errors of their ways might serve as an example.

In this scenario does resisting it them become a forceful attempt to reconcile? Or does resisting it mean loss of expectation in order to cease further negative causation?

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