Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Malcolm
Posts: 31742
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:22 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:53 pm

you scolded someone for reading Dzogchen books without the initiation and i agree with you on this very important rule.
Dzogchen texts require some expertise to understand in a proper way. A literal reading of them is often inaccurate.

Malcolm
Posts: 31742
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:24 pm

Astus wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:33 pm
Likewise, unless those buddha qualities are discovered by you in a direct perception, or pointed out to you, even if you have them, they are of no use to you.
Direct pointing to the human mind is one of the main Zen slogans. It can result in buddhahood exactly because there is no need to gather anything more.
It could, but it usually doesn't, 99.999 percent of the time. In any case, buddhahood cannot be realized with slogans.

User avatar
Caoimhghín
Posts: 2704
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Caoimhghín » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:10 pm
Caoimhghín wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:26 am
I agree it's complex, but it does strike me as odd that the once-returner with his partial awakening as an unripened wisdom that only completely fruits later would be less awakened than the stream-entrant with his seven lifetimes until arhatva. Of course, bodhisattva stream-entry does not result in seven lifetimes until arhatva.

Arguably one of the reasons why the stream-entrant is called a stream-entrant is because he has merely "entered the stream" to awakening. His seven lifetimes, or dare we say his three aeons, are the consequence of that entrance then, at least seven to make it up the stream to "the other shore" in the case of the path as the Buddha outlined it to the śrāvakas.
Why are you bothering to litigate something which is a simple matter of definition?
It's just a matter of in-person Buddhism disagreeing with on-internet Buddhism.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

Malcolm
Posts: 31742
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:48 pm

Caoimhghín wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:10 pm
Caoimhghín wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:26 am
I agree it's complex, but it does strike me as odd that the once-returner with his partial awakening as an unripened wisdom that only completely fruits later would be less awakened than the stream-entrant with his seven lifetimes until arhatva. Of course, bodhisattva stream-entry does not result in seven lifetimes until arhatva.

Arguably one of the reasons why the stream-entrant is called a stream-entrant is because he has merely "entered the stream" to awakening. His seven lifetimes, or dare we say his three aeons, are the consequence of that entrance then, at least seven to make it up the stream to "the other shore" in the case of the path as the Buddha outlined it to the śrāvakas.
Why are you bothering to litigate something which is a simple matter of definition?
It's just a matter of in-person Buddhism disagreeing with on-internet Buddhism.
Āryas possess bodhi, whether it is the inferior bodhi of ārya śrāvakas or the superior bodhi of ārya bodhisattvas.

There is bodhi, and there there is samyaksambodhi.

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 2617
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Minobu » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:17 pm

Well Lopan Malcolm , thank you for helping me finally get at least a rudimentary peek into Dzogchen...
enough to at least know what i would be getting into.

yer alright
d

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 7777
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Astus » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:45 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:24 pm
It could, but it usually doesn't, 99.999 percent of the time.
That's a slightly more pessimistic than usual.

'Of the thousands or tens of thousands of people in this school, only three or five of them have gotten it.'
(Huangbo, in Birds in Flight Leaves No Trace, ch 44)

有禪無淨土。十人九錯路。無禪有淨土。萬修萬人去。有禪有淨土。猶如戴角虎也。
'With Chan but without Pure Land nine out of ten miss the road. Without Chan but with Pure Land ten thousand practitioners out of ten thousand pass. With Chan and with Pure Land it is like a horned tiger.'
(Yongming Yanshou quoted in Wuliangshoujing huiyi 無量壽經會譯, X1n5p70b14-16)
In any case, buddhahood cannot be realized with slogans.
But I quite like Chekawa's collection...
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 2186
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:50 am

Astus wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:45 am
In any case, buddhahood cannot be realized with slogans.
But I quite like Chekawa's collection...
I love this comeback! :applause:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

User avatar
jake
Global Moderator
Posts: 1186
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:13 pm

Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by jake » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:32 am

Astus wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:45 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:24 pm
It could, but it usually doesn't, 99.999 percent of the time.
That's a slightly more pessimistic than usual.

'Of the thousands or tens of thousands of people in this school, only three or five of them have gotten it.'
(Huangbo, in Birds in Flight Leaves No Trace, ch 44)
5 out of 10,000 = 99.95% haven't gotten it. ;-)

Malcolm
Posts: 31742
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:41 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:45 am
But I quite like Chekawa's collection...
Useful, but not definitive.

User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 4308
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by LastLegend » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:10 pm

Everyone is very fearful of karma not blaming them me too but that’s Bodhi of Sanayahmakka (spill?).

samyaksambodhi.(copied from master malcom).above.
Make personal vows.

End of the day: I don’t know.

User avatar
Ayu
Global Moderator
Posts: 8274
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: Why choose Mahayana over Vajrayana?

Post by Ayu » Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:13 am

Removed some off topic bickering posts. I think, this thread needs a pause.
If you want to add something substantial on topic, please contact a moderator to reopen the topic.
For the benefit and ease of all sentient beings. :heart:

Locked

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Astus, Bristollad, Tiago Simões, Viach and 23 guests