"Son of Buddha"
so this means you don't know first hand how many times Dharma Dhatu is actually mentioned in the Tathagatagarbha Sutras,your information is based upon the search engine you are using and is only as good as the search engine that is being used.......with that said your search results are flawed.
"Malcolm"The Tathāgatagarbha sūtra does not use the word dharmadhātu even once. It simply is not used in that sūtra as it is present in the bka' gyur
this is a misunderstanding,I didnt says the Tathagatagarbha sutra mentioned Dharma Dhatu.........I said Dharmakaya was mentioned in Tathagatagarbha sutraS
that was meant as "plural" as to say it is taught in the genre itself.
sorry to create a misunderstanding what I was trying to say is "Dharma Dhatu is actually mentioned in the Buddha Nature sutra(S)"
Yup,you are correct, in terms of the Nirvana sūtra, the search engine I used was flawed it will not return searches in texts that span two volumes.
So, I checked via other means and In the Tibetan recension of the two volumes of the Nirvana sutra the term "chos kyi dbyings" i.e. dharmadhātu occurs exactly total of sixteen times. It does not suffer this problem for shorter sutras that do not span volumes. Since the other tathāgatagarbha sūtras are quite short, I have no fear that my search was flawed. Here it is, BTW:
depends on the translator and the version
Faxian is essentially the one I use (that would be the first 17 chapters of the Dharmakeshema version)
Dharmakeshema is another version and the longest by far (WAY longer than the other versions)
the Hlaydawa Tibetan version that Dolpopa quoted from(earliest) if im not mistaken is more based off the Faxian but is actually shorter
I think other Tibetan versions are more based off chinese Dharmakeshema(correct me if I am wrong, i'm not an expert on that subject)
Here is another interesting quote from the Nirvana sutra:
- Son of a good family, all phenomena are false, where they cease, that is called "true", "a true perception", "dharmadhātu", "wisdom of perfection", "ultimate" and "ultimate emptiness".
What version are you using?
what is the Chapter its under?
I am using the CORE text known as Faxian
also the Nirvana sutra as stated before states 11 different types of Emptiness........The Emptiness that is championed throughout out the text is the Emptiness of all 25 existences but NOT Empty like the inside of a Bamboo, empty of the Flame but NOT Empty of the Lamp holder.
(this quote is in relation to the phenomena post)
[Nirvana sutra] Chapter Three: On Grief
"the Tathagata teaches and says no-self. This is to adjust beings and because he is aware of the occasion. Such non-self is, as occasion arises, spoken of, and it is [also] said that there is the Self. This is as in the case of the learned Doctor, who knows well the medicinal and non-medicinal qualities of milk. It is not as with common mortals, who might measure the size of their own self. Common mortals and the ignorant may measure the size of their own self and say, 'It is like the size of a thumb, like a mustard seed, or like the size of a mote.' When the Tathagata speaks of Self, in no case are things thus. That is why he says: 'All things have no Self.'
V135. Even though he has said that all phenomena [dharmas] are devoid of the Self, it is not that they are completely/ truly devoid of the Self. What is this Self? Any phenomenon [dharma] that is true [satya], real [tattva], eternal [nitya], sovereign/ autonomous/ self-governing [aisvarya], and whose ground/ foundation is unchanging [asraya-aviparinama], is termed 'the Self' [atman]. This is as in the case of the great Doctor who well understands the milk medicine. The same is the case with the Tathagata. For the sake of beings, he says "there is the Self in all things" O you the four classes! Learn Dharma thus!"
(these are based on emptiness)
"If we say empty, there can be no Eternity, Bliss, Self, and Purity. If not-empty, who is the one blessed with Eternity, Bliss, Self, and Purity? Thus, we should say neither empty nor not-empty. Empty will entail [the notion] that the 25 existences, all illusions, suffering, the phases of life, and all actual actions do not exist. When there is no cream in the pot, we may say empty. Not-empty points to Truth, to whatever is Good, Eternal, Bliss, Self, Pure, Immovable and Unchanging."
(this quote is in support of the quote above it,where is speaks out against the Empty-Empty views)
"We say "truth of the extinction of suffering". If a person practises many things [teachings] and the way of nothingness, this is non-good. Why so? Because this annuls all laws and breaks the true storehouse of the Tathagata. Any practice of this category is the practising of nothingness. One who practises the extinction of suffering acts against what all tirthikas do. If the practice of nothingness is the truth of extinction, there are tirthikas who also practise the teaching of nothingness; we must say that they too possess the truth of extinction. A person says: "There is the Tathagatagarbha [Buddha-Womb - the pristine mind under cover of illusion]. One cannot see this. But if one does away with all illusions, one may indeed enter." It is thus. By the raising of such a mind [i.e. by cultivating such an attitude of mind], one gains freedom in all things. If a person practises the Way of the hidden storehouse, selflessness, and emptiness, such a person repeats birth and death for innumerable ages to come and suffers from sorrow. A person who does not do such practices may certainly, even though he might have illusion, soon do away with it. Why so? Because he well knows the undisclosed [secret, hidden] storehouse of the Tathagata. This is the noble truth of the extinction of suffering. Any person who practises extinction in such a way is my disciple. A person not practising the Way thus is one who practises emptiness. This is not the noble truth of extinction.
Now I have already quoted the Queen Srimala Sutra which teachs how emptiness is to be viewed concerning the Tathagatgarbha so instead of reposting it you can reference it in my other post.(it is quite clear on how emptiness is suppoed to be viewed in our Genre)
Now Malcolm the Teachings of Emptiness is of the Tathagatagarbha/Dharamakaya is actually taught in the Buddha Nature Sutras in extreme detail.the Emptiness that is taught is "other Emptiness" i.e Shentong
This is highly debatable.
That it is.....But my queen Srimala Sutra quote was pretty clear on the subject.
It's neglected, since a proper and thorough examination of the term dharmadhātu revealed that it occurs exactly 16 times in the Nirvana sūtra's Tibetan recension. There is no Sanskrit original, so you would have to consult the Chinese in order to cross check this. I listed the other mentions. My point still stands the same.
your search engine is off.I can find it more times than that just in the Faxian Version
the Dharmkeshema version also contains Dhamakaya verses in it also.
now I use the Core text which is Faxian and can be found in the first 17 chapters of the Dharmakeshema version(for cross reference)
what version are you using and doing your web search on????
with that said I respectfully disagree.....But at the same time to refute you I would have to literally reread and note every single time the phrase Dharmakaya is mentioned counting them all up........ also I would have to note where the phrase is used AND the context that surrounds (meaning the phrase could be used once but the entire page is a discussion based around the one phrase)
for instance we find in Chapter 39 of the Dharmakeshema version ""O good man! The eternal of the Tathagata is the Self. The Dharmakaya of the Tathagata is unboundedness, unobstructedness, birthlessness, undyingness, and the eight unmolestedness, this is the Self.
as you already know the faxian says exactly the same so the Dharmakaya is explained in this sutra as "The Self" and also as "Eternal"
and chapter 5 goes into deep detail on other aspects of the topic also.
peace and love