The Truth of the First Noble Truth

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
brendan
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by brendan » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:
brendan wrote:
The claims are that Buddha/Dharma does eliminate all suffering (or course via Dependent Origination)....but considering the claims..moving the goal posts (lack of a better term) seems a very appropriate term.
Can you present such claims, something found in a sūtra, for example?
Considering the claims of Vajradhara, Garab Dorje, Buddhas etc..at what point is their view of Dependent Origination and their claims of accomplishment not poetic licence and machism.
Which claims? Can you bring them forward?

They clearly claim that they can eliminate suffering albeit via dependent origination and that they have _all_ thee tools to do it. So why all the torture?

BTW, you have seemed awfully disappointed in Buddhadharma now for many years, and for some strange reason, you seem to only comment on my posts.[/]

They clearly claim they can eliminate _all_ suffering albeit via dependent origination. So why all the torture? Not disappointed just find the hypocrisy a little funny. Sorry for responding to a few of your posts.

brendan
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by brendan » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:10 am

Malcolm wrote:
brendan wrote:
The claims are that Buddha/Dharma does eliminate all suffering (or course via Dependent Origination)....but considering the claims..moving the goal posts (lack of a better term) seems a very appropriate term.
Can you present such claims, something found in a sūtra, for example?
Considering the claims of Vajradhara, Garab Dorje, Buddhas etc..at what point is their view of Dependent Origination and their claims of accomplishment not poetic licence and machism.
Which claims? Can you bring them forward?

BTW, you have seemed awfully disappointed in Buddhadharma now for many years, and for some strange reason, you seem to only comment on my posts.
They clearly claim they can eliminate suffering albeit via dependent origination...so if they can do it why not just do it....why all the torture? It seems more like poetic license and machoism. Not disappointed just find the hypocrisy a bit funny..sorry for replying to some of your posts.

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:45 am

brendan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
brendan wrote:
The claims are that Buddha/Dharma does eliminate all suffering (or course via Dependent Origination)....but considering the claims..moving the goal posts (lack of a better term) seems a very appropriate term.
Can you present such claims, something found in a sūtra, for example?
Considering the claims of Vajradhara, Garab Dorje, Buddhas etc..at what point is their view of Dependent Origination and their claims of accomplishment not poetic licence and machism.
Which claims? Can you bring them forward?

BTW, you have seemed awfully disappointed in Buddhadharma now for many years, and for some strange reason, you seem to only comment on my posts.
They clearly claim they can eliminate suffering albeit via dependent origination...so if they can do it why not just do it why all the torture? It seems more like poetic license and machoism. Not disappointed just find the hypocrisy a bit funny..sorry for replying to some of your posts.
As I understand it Buddhas and Bodhisattvas can't do a thing for us without our effort. There's even the old analogy about holding up an Iron ring of virtue, etc. so that they can use their hook of compassionto "fish" you out...but that ain't happening without you actually holding up the ring.
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brendan
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by brendan » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:14 am

That is already understood (please stop it)...the point is after one has made the movement and meet the requirements. Why all the grandiose claims and chest beating just do what they claim they can do.

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Malcolm
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:45 am

brendan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
brendan wrote:
The claims are that Buddha/Dharma does eliminate all suffering (or course via Dependent Origination)....but considering the claims..moving the goal posts (lack of a better term) seems a very appropriate term.
Can you present such claims, something found in a sūtra, for example?
Considering the claims of Vajradhara, Garab Dorje, Buddhas etc..at what point is their view of Dependent Origination and their claims of accomplishment not poetic licence and machism.
Which claims? Can you bring them forward?

BTW, you have seemed awfully disappointed in Buddhadharma now for many years, and for some strange reason, you seem to only comment on my posts.
They clearly claim they can eliminate suffering albeit via dependent origination...so if they can do it why not just do it....why all the torture? It seems more like poetic license and machoism. Not disappointed just find the hypocrisy a bit funny..sorry for replying to some of your posts.

No, this is not correct. Buddha taught that one can eliminate one's own suffering through understanding dependent origination. He never claimed to be able to remove the suffering of others. In fact, he stated in many places in both Hinayāna and Mahāyāna sutras that he had no ability to remove the suffering of others. So, you are perceiving a hypocrisy where none exists.
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by DGA » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:52 am

brendan wrote:That is already understood (please stop it)...the point is after one has made the movement and meet the requirements. Why all the grandiose claims and chest beating just do what they claim they can do.
Would you mind giving a concrete example of a specific claim made by Buddha Shakyamuni or anyone else that resembles the "chest beating" you perceive as hypocritical? Maybe a quotation or something?

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:02 am

Didn't Avalokiteśvara say that there is no suffering in the Heart Sutra?
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:36 am

brendan wrote:That is already understood (please stop it)...the point is after one has made the movement and meet the requirements. Why all the grandiose claims and chest beating just do what they claim they can do.

I second Jiakn's request, you should quit with the quippy one-liners.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by brendan » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:02 am

The claims are that Buddha/Dharma does eliminate all suffering (or course via Dependent Origination)....but considering the claims..moving the goal posts (lack of a better term) seems a very appropriate term.[/quote]

Can you present such claims, something found in a sūtra, for example?


No, this is not correct. Buddha taught that one can eliminate one's own suffering through understanding dependent origination. He never claimed to be able to remove the suffering of others. In fact, he stated in many places in both Hinayāna and Mahāyāna sutras that he had no ability to remove the suffering of others. So, you are perceiving a hypocrisy where none exists.[/quote][/quote]



So why did you suggest I pray to Tara. Dependent Origination is two sided...i'm not the one claiming im a Buddha....and Mahayana Buddhas apparently have accomplished the 10 Bhumis the 6 Perfections etc...im sure you know the stages of accomplishments in 10 Bhumis as you are a translator. Chest beating anyone.

Not to mention what the other Bhumis of Vajrayana and Dzogchen...their accomplishments are said to be for more advanced.
Last edited by brendan on Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:25 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by brendan » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:39 am

Jikan wrote:
brendan wrote:That is already understood (please stop it)...the point is after one has made the movement and meet the requirements. Why all the grandiose claims and chest beating just do what they claim they can do.
Would you mind giving a concrete example of a specific claim made by Buddha Shakyamuni or anyone else that resembles the "chest beating" you perceive as hypocritical? Maybe a quotation or something?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bh%C5%ABmi_(Buddhism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bh%C5%ABmi_(Buddhism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Sorry the link has a coding problem. Go to Wiki and look up Bhumis.

This is just the 10 Bhumis of Mahayana. There are more advanced Vajrayana and Dzogchen Bhumis.

Read the accomplishments. Anyway you are a moderator so I'm sure you are aware of the claims of what Buddhas have accomplished.
Last edited by brendan on Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:01 am

You are still failing to convey what you mean, please post something a bit clearer.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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brendan
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by brendan » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:05 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:You are still failing to convey what you mean, please post something a bit clearer.
OK Medicine Buddha.

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Mkoll » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:25 am

brendan wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:You are still failing to convey what you mean, please post something a bit clearer.
OK Medicine Buddha.
:ban:

Starting to think brendan is trolling...
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by brendan » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:42 am

dzogchungpa wrote:Didn't Avalokiteśvara say that there is no suffering in the Heart Sutra?

LOL

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Sönam » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:09 am

brendan wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Didn't Avalokiteśvara say that there is no suffering in the Heart Sutra?

LOL
What do you mean? ... I think you have not understood one little line of Buddhadharma. You are out young man!

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Grigoris » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:19 am

Mkoll wrote:Starting to think brendan is trolling...
I'm with Mkoll on this one, definitely trolling. :ban:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

brendan
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by brendan » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:04 pm

The problem seems to be one of us has a very different cogninton of "guide" or "assist".

Also there still is suffering.



No disrespect intended.

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Admin_PC » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:01 pm

brendan wrote:So why did you suggest I pray to Tara.
Because maybe the act of reliance has benefits in its own regard?
I always liked this quote from Honen on the issue:
Honen wrote:There is no place the moon does not shine,
But it only illuminates
in the heart of those who gaze at it.
月影の いたらぬ里は なけれども 眺むる人の 心にぞすむ
法然上人

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by lorem » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:22 pm

Suffering comes from ignorance, grasping at a true self.

Okay this is a word explanation. Not correct view but Just an example. Like a script

Say I am a Buddha and you are a person. Okay you suffer because of ignorance. I can point out reality to you (in our example a book) I can't make you read the book--you have to read it. As you get farther in the book you will understand more and more about reality and your essential nature (the chapters or bhumis). Once you finish the book then you will have reached a point where you understand ignorance, suffering, self. Not torture--just you have to read the book (walk the path). No one can do it for you.

EDIT

I CANT JUST GIVE YOU THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE BOOK BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN HABITUATED FROM BEGINNINGLESS TIME OF VIEWING THROUGH IGNORANCE. I CAN GIVE IT TO YOU BUT YOU WILL BE IN IT FOR HOWEVER LONG I AM THERE THEN YOU WILL GO BACK TO VIEWING IT THROUGH YOUR IGNORANCE.

I hope that is an explanation that might help. Everybody has different ways of learning and at different levels.
I should be meditating.

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Grigoris » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:46 pm

brendan wrote:OK Medicine Buddha.
Which Medicine Buddha practice? Are you familiar with initiation and self-visualisation? Do you know anything about Yidam practice? Do you know anything about how a Buddha acts?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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