The Truth of the First Noble Truth

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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lorem
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by lorem » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:40 pm

brendan wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Didn't Avalokiteśvara say that there is no suffering in the Heart Sutra?

LOL
Shije or Pacification of Suffering came from Heart Sutra. Chod from Vajra Cutter (we can argue that point but is not the point).

I like Jikan's idea of not giving up.

EDIT I interjected maybe Sherab you should bump your question.
I should be meditating.

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Malcolm
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:53 pm

brendan wrote: So why did you suggest I pray to Tara.
Very simply put, taking refuge in sublime beings such as Buddhas and tenth stage bodhisattvas is meritorious because they are pure, uncontaminated and free of all afflictions. This alone eliminates traces of obscuration.
Mahayana Buddhas apparently have accomplished the 10 Bhumis the 6 Perfections etc...im sure you know the stages of accomplishments in 10 Bhumis as you are a translator.
Do you suppose that perfecting dānapāramitā, the perfection generosity means that you have removed all the poverty there is in the three realms? Of course it does not mean that. Ṥantideva addresses this qualm in the Bodhicaryāvatāra where he points out that the Bodhisattva perfected the perfection of generosity through his wish to give all virtuous things to everyone, not because he was actually able to do so. Mahāyāna is based on one's intention.

Since you are someone who has entered Mahāyāna already, it is really better if you go back to the beginning and study the teachings under a qualified teacher in a proper way. This cynicism, doubt and lack of faith is harmful to you.
Not to mention what the other Bhumis of Vajrayana and Dzogchen...their accomplishments are said to be for more advanced.
The bhumis in Vajrayāna are merely subtle refinements in omniscience, that is all, there are no special powers that Vajradhara as that a buddha on the eleventh bhumi lacks.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:55 pm

brendan wrote:
Read the accomplishments. Anyway you are a moderator so I'm sure you are aware of the claims of what Buddhas have accomplished.
Maybe you should read them more carefully.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by DGA » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:10 pm

brendan wrote:
Jikan wrote:
brendan wrote:That is already understood (please stop it)...the point is after one has made the movement and meet the requirements. Why all the grandiose claims and chest beating just do what they claim they can do.
Would you mind giving a concrete example of a specific claim made by Buddha Shakyamuni or anyone else that resembles the "chest beating" you perceive as hypocritical? Maybe a quotation or something?
Read the accomplishments. Anyway you are a moderator so I'm sure you are aware of the claims of what Buddhas have accomplished.
I have some familiarity with Buddha Dharma, but that's beside the point. I'm not asking for my benefit, I'm asking in order to understand just where you're coming from. Last I checked, wikipedia isn't a canonical Buddhist text, so it's totally unclear why you chose to cite that as evidence in support of your claim on the "chest-beating" of Buddhas and bodhisattvas.

I think Malcolm's posts give you excellent advice and guidance on this. He's rebutted your posts directly, reasonably, and patiently. I encourage you to apply that advice and cease trolling this thread.

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by brendan » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
brendan wrote:
Read the accomplishments. Anyway you are a moderator so I'm sure you are aware of the claims of what Buddhas have accomplished.
Maybe you should read them more carefully.
Malcolm, Buddhas are said to be able to manifest as _anything_...or as many atoms in the universe.

There is still suffering...and thanks for all your hard work and time in translating.

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Malcolm
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:39 pm

brendan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
brendan wrote:
Read the accomplishments. Anyway you are a moderator so I'm sure you are aware of the claims of what Buddhas have accomplished.
Maybe you should read them more carefully.
Malcolm, Buddhas are said to be able to manifest as _anything_...or as many atoms in the universe.

There is still suffering...and thanks for all your hard work and time in translating.
Yes, and nevertheless because of our own afflictive and karmic obscurations not only are we unable to see them, but we still continue to suffer.

For example, a person with jaundice cannot see white things as white, only as yellow and so on. Buddhas offer us the medicine to cure this condition, but if we do not take it, then like the sick person who does not follow their doctor's instructions, then we have only ourselves to blame for not getting well.

In the end, brendan, we are responsible for our own liberation, there are no Buddhas to lift us out of samsara like mewling kittens being moved to a safe place by mother cat. This does not mean however that Buddhas are not all around us, benefitting us all the time in ways we cannot or will not perceive.

All harm that comes to us is a result of our afflicted vision. All benefit that comes to us is the blessings of the Buddhas — if we train with this attitude, then our attitude will improve remarkably.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by brendan » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:46 pm

Malcolm, Buddhas are said to also be beyond doctors.

You didn't have to type that (but thanks)...I have listing to and read about that response many times.

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Malcolm
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:53 pm

brendan wrote:Malcolm, Buddhas are beyond doctors.
Buddhas are called "great physicians" for the very reason I state. And like doctors who can only treat patients who do what they say, Buddha can only help sentient beings who follow the path that they teach. As it is said:
  • The munis do not wash sins away,
    nor remove suffering with their hands.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:58 pm

brendan wrote:Malcolm, Buddhas are said to also be beyond doctors.

You didn't have to type that (but thanks)...I have listing to and read about that response many times.

And yet, so far you haven't given a coherent counter to the statement. Buddhas can only help us inasmuch as we are willing to see them, and follow their instructions.

Recollection of the Tathagata even goes back to the Pali Canon...

Chemo therapy ain't gonna do anything for someone who is denial about having cancer, because they'd never start it.
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by brendan » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:
brendan wrote:Malcolm, Buddhas are beyond doctors.
Buddhas are called "great physicians" for the very reason I state. And like doctors who can only treat patients who do what they say, Buddha can only help sentient beings who follow the path that they teach. As it is said:
  • The munis do not wash sins away,
    nor remove suffering with their hands.

Malcolm, not doing what they say and not following the path is also a illness.

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by DGA » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:02 pm

brendan wrote:Malcolm, Buddhas are said to also be beyond doctors.

You didn't have to type that (but thanks)...I have listing to and read about that response many times.
Where, in what text, in what context, have you read or heard that Buddhas are also beyond doctors? And what does that mean?

And how does that counterweigh the evidence to the contrary that you yourself admit you've read many times?

A few posts back, I encouraged you to cease trolling the board. This is a second reminder.

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by DGA » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:02 pm

brendan wrote:

Malcolm, not doing what they say and not following the path is also a illness.
Give some evidence. What, specifically, to Buddhas claim to do but then not do?

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by conebeckham » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:06 pm

brendan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
brendan wrote:Malcolm, Buddhas are beyond doctors.
Buddhas are called "great physicians" for the very reason I state. And like doctors who can only treat patients who do what they say, Buddha can only help sentient beings who follow the path that they teach. As it is said:
  • The munis do not wash sins away,
    nor remove suffering with their hands.

Malcolm, not doing what they say and not following the path is also a illness.
Yes, but it's OUR illness.

Brendan-suffering only exists because there are sentient beings. If all sentient beings were Buddhas, there would be no suffering. But there is no way for any Buddha to end my suffering, or your suffering--they can point the way, provide the medicine, set the example, but we hold the responsibility in our hands.

As long as there are sentient beings, that is as long as the First Noble Truth is True.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Grigoris » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:21 pm

A doctor gives you medicine, if you refuse to take it...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:04 pm

brendan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
brendan wrote:Malcolm, Buddhas are beyond doctors.
Buddhas are called "great physicians" for the very reason I state. And like doctors who can only treat patients who do what they say, Buddha can only help sentient beings who follow the path that they teach. As it is said:
  • The munis do not wash sins away,
    nor remove suffering with their hands.

Malcolm, not doing what they say and not following the path is also a illness.
Yes, and there is nothing Buddhas can do about that.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

brendan
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Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:25 am

Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by brendan » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
brendan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:[Malcolm, Buddhas are beyond doctors.
Buddhas are called "great physicians" for the very reason I state. And like doctors who can only treat patients who do what they say, Buddha can only help sentient beings who follow the path that they teach. As it is said:
  • The munis do not wash sins away,
    nor remove suffering with their hands.

Malcolm, not doing what they say and not following the path is also a illness.
Yes, and there is nothing Buddhas can do about that.[/quote]

Malcolm, this is your quote "All benefit that comes to us is the blessings of the Buddhas".

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Paul
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Paul » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:40 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:A doctor gives you medicine, if you refuse to take it...
Yes - samsara is because of a being's deluded mind. The only thing that can bring that delusion to an end is a being deliberately training their mind. It's not like a doctor removing a tumour for a patient. Buddhas manifest infinite training methods, but if they are not followed then a being's samsaric delusion will continue.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by brendan » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:42 pm

brendan wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:You are still failing to convey what you mean, please post something a bit clearer.
OK Medicine Buddha.
Sorry for typing this in a Mahayana thread.

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Malcolm
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Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:56 pm

brendan wrote:
Malcolm, this is your quote "All benefit that comes to us is the blessings of the Buddhas".
Yes, because the buddhas only wish the best for sentient beings, it is therefore any benefit that befalls them is a blessing of the buddhas.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

brendan
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Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:25 am

Re: The Truth of the First Noble Truth

Post by brendan » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:04 am

Malcolm wrote:
brendan wrote:
Malcolm, this is your quote "All benefit that comes to us is the blessings of the Buddhas".
Yes, because the buddhas only wish the best for sentient beings, it is therefore any benefit that befalls them is a blessing of the buddhas.
This is also a quote, "Yes, and there is nothing Buddhas can do about that"...So how can there even be a cognition of a wish?

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