Bardo and rebirth

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
umbra
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:19 pm

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by umbra » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:59 pm

Redfaery wrote:
umbra wrote:Sorry, is Mahayana not Tibetan Buddhism? Which forum are you referring?
........the one specifically labeled "Tibetan Buddhism?" What you're looking for isn't even Mahayana at all. It's Vajrayana.
Sorry again. Obviously reading Evans-Wentz and Arthur Avalon gave me the wrong idea...or maybe it was considered Mahayana back in their day, but no longer. Anyway, how do I get this inquiry to "Tibetan Buddhism" forum? Do I re-post it, ask the Mod to move it or what?

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2029
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by Fortyeightvows » Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:15 am

by the way this thread is going I think some reading of basic buddhism, including it's teachings and history would be of more benefit then reading arthur avalon.

umbra
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:19 pm

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by umbra » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:41 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:by the way this thread is going I think some reading of basic buddhism, including it's teachings and history would be of more benefit then reading arthur avalon.
Sir John Woodroffe's 'Tantrik Texts' series traced the passage of Buddhism from India to Tibet, and its relationship with Yoga & Tantra. The Evans-Wentz books were at least at one time considered required reading for Tibetan Buddhism. Maybe that has changed. I have no interest in any form of Buddhism outside the Tibetan variety, and therefore no need to look into that. If my posting is in the wrong forum, I welcome its move to the right one.

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2029
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:02 am

Are you being serious?

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2029
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:11 am

how could one understand tibetan buddhism without understanding it's development and the context? I mean the context both physically and geographically and also within the larger buddhist world? evan-wentz made a serious contribution with his translation work but required reading? That's maybe a bit of an exaggeration. In fact it seems that a lot of the required reading for tibetan buddhists are texts which are not written by tibetans but by indians, this is why there is so much overlap with many of the most common and popular texts studied and recited in tibetan buddhist circles and those of other lineages. samatabadhra's prayer, nagarjuna, heart sutra, etc.

By the way, coincidentally, I recently got an awesome copy of evan wentz tibetan yoga book, five stars!

umbra
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:19 pm

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by umbra » Wed May 13, 2015 2:00 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:how could one understand tibetan buddhism without understanding it's development and the context? I mean the context both physically and geographically and also within the larger buddhist world? evan-wentz made a serious contribution with his translation work but required reading? That's maybe a bit of an exaggeration. In fact it seems that a lot of the required reading for tibetan buddhists are texts which are not written by tibetans but by indians, this is why there is so much overlap with many of the most common and popular texts studied and recited in tibetan buddhist circles and those of other lineages. samatabadhra's prayer, nagarjuna, heart sutra, etc.

By the way, coincidentally, I recently got an awesome copy of evan wentz tibetan yoga book, five stars!
I have no interest in becoming an armchair scholar of Tibetan Buddhism. My interest is in the Bardo teachings, three of the Six Yogas of Naropa, and maybe the Kalachakra. Everything else is a waste of my (limited) time and effort. I do not need to know about the Mahamudra, Dzogchen, etc., and I especially do not need to know about Theravada or Hinayana (at least no more than I already know). My interests are limited, and I never at any time claimed otherwise. As Buddhism arose in India and migrated to Tibet, it comes as no surprise that Indians have been prolific authors. As for Evans-Wentz, what may be an exaggeration today was not so, thirty-plus years ago. Back then, it seems Woodroroffe and Evans-Wentz was much more respected than they are today. As for more current required reading, try these:
Mind Beyond Death ISBN#9781559392761
Secret Doctrines of the Tibetan Books of the Dead ISBN#9781570626548
Death Intermediate State and Rebirth in Tibetan Buddhism ISBN#9780937938003
Sacred Tibetan Teachings on Death and Liberation ISBN#9781853270499
The Mirror of Mindfulness ISBN#9780877734574
Transcending Madness ISBN#9780877736370
Journey of the Mind ISBN#9781877294082
Natural Liberation ISBN#9780861717248
...and yes, some of the above were actually written by Tibetans.

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2029
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed May 13, 2015 6:21 am

Understanding the things you're talking about requires some knowledge of basic buddhist teachings

Understanding what happens during the dissolution and in the bardo requires understanding the workings of the aggregates and thus requires an understanding of 'hinayana' and 'mahayana' teachings. The empowerments for these practices require one to take refuge and bodhisattva vows. And so on and so on.

Talking about bardo and rebirth, what's reborn?

Ever heard of the storehouse?
Not saying that's it, but at least the conversation could be had...

Anyways required reading for tibetan buddhism would probably be things like the texts explaining the five topics of curriculum or maitreya's five texts.

hop.pala
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 3:48 am

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by hop.pala » Wed May 13, 2015 8:46 pm

umbra wrote:I have read that there are practices one can do while alive, and techniques to employ in the Bardo-state, that gives the ability to choose the next incarnation, but no details ever seem to be given. What are the specific techniques and practices that gives one control to pick the next rebirth?

Underconsciousness stay allways underconsciousness, dont necessary any support.

"I think these are practices specific to esoteric Tibetan Buddhism."

The buddhism from the tibetan is not different from the old shamanism of Tibet.

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2029
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed May 13, 2015 9:18 pm

Really?

hop.pala
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 3:48 am

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by hop.pala » Wed May 13, 2015 9:51 pm

Yes because we try speak about another worlds,another level of consciousness.Another worlds is not this world,and another level of consciousness appear in the brain as underconsciousness.And you know the Śālistamba sūtra speak about cittas.Dont have any self,no existence only moment of the consciousness.And can you see after death consciousness that is not like a citta,but i know that is it only broken mindness,because the man is only so accomplished when born.

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2029
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed May 13, 2015 11:55 pm

The part of your post I was really questioning was "The buddhism from the tibetan is not different from the old shamanism of Tibet"

hop.pala
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 3:48 am

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by hop.pala » Thu May 14, 2015 12:42 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:The part of your post I was really questioning was "The buddhism from the tibetan is not different from the old shamanism of Tibet"
In characteristic not different.

User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 1602
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu May 14, 2015 3:14 am

Well I'd be surprised if Tibetan shamanism pre-Guru Rinpoche had the four seals ...

:tongue:

I suspect the monasteries adapted shamanism to Buddhism not the other way round. The Bonpos may disagree ...

Cue the scholars ...

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 2029
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu May 14, 2015 3:19 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Well I'd be surprised if Tibetan shamanism pre-Guru Rinpoche had the four seals
This.

User avatar
ClearblueSky
Posts: 465
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:27 am

Re: Bardo and rebirth

Post by ClearblueSky » Thu May 28, 2015 7:51 pm

silver surfer wrote:
muni wrote:
Guru Rinpoche seems to be speaking as if we are able to see without having eyes, or able to form thoughts without having synapses or neural activity.
Seeing, talking, hearing, feeling… we can experience in night dreams. Its’ a whole world there :smile: which no other dreaming mind knows. A prove of their empty nature, I guess. In ND experiences many can confirm the amazing clarity with which the seeing, hearing, able to form thoughts…is experienced, even when there is no registered activity to observe anymore. There is for example the story of a neurosurgeon who experienced ND, which can maybe change the sceptical mind into a more open mind.
I'm fully open minded, fully.

But I don't understand. Dreams, they happen in the brain. When I dream I'm always me, I'm always identified with my current body, never something else. Does it mean I'm actually my body? No. It just proves that 'the dreaming' happens in my brain depending on the experiences of this particular life. You think what I'm saying is wrong? How?
Let's be honest here, what it comes down to is that this concept, and many other basic concepts of Buddhism even, cannot be proven by science. Maybe they can't be disproven (nor can the hebrew god, ancient greek dieties, etc), but saying something is the true because it can't be disproven is a big logical fallacy... from a scientific viewpoint. From a scientific viewpoint, I don't think what you're saying is wrong. From a Buddhist viewpoint, it is incomplete, yes. Despite someone who is a neurosurgeon forming new beliefs because of a near death experience, the consensus in science is still that you cannot have thought processes or consciousness without a brain. There has been a lot of new openness to investigating this concept in science though, the concept of consciousness beyond a brain. Enough so that some scientists are presenting interesting scientific theories as to how that could be a possibility, but they're still just theories.

Sometimes you need to look at the philosophy and beliefs and pick a side, or at the very least decide "science hasn't explained it yet, but it resonates with my beliefs". Even reincarnation itself. It's pretty fundamental to Buddhism. There some (scientific) theories as to how it could work, but there is ZERO scientific proof, or really much that could even be considered true scientific evidence (please, no need to link to the stories of kids remembering past lives, or the neurosurgeon who had a subjective experience. True or not, it doesn't qualify as scientific). Sometimes you need to step outside the box to investigate if you feel there could be some truth beyond what's scientific for something (your example about brain synapses). Then, only you can decide what feels true for you, there's a lot no one will be able to prove... especially when it comes to more esoteric teachings.

Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests