What kind of mind do Buddhas have

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
smcj
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by smcj » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:51 pm

The point being that, unless we can see someone's individual karma, we do not have enough data to know how those types of teachings apply to a specific case.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:54 pm

Greg wrote:
Malcolm wrote:This discusses conceptual analysis, not meditation.
Do you hold that conceptual analysis is never "meditation?"

Correct, it is only a post-equipoise exercise. One should not engage in conceptual analysis in equipoise.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:55 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:I assume these 3 incalcuable eons have to be perfect practice as well?
Right, this assumes the practitioners of the highest capacity.

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:56 pm

smcj wrote:The point being that, unless we can see someone's individual karma, we do not have enough data to know how those types of teachings apply to a specific case.

Unless someone is some kind of emanation (which cannot be externally ascertained), we can assume that having been born in the desire realm, we are very much beginners on the path.

BuddhaFollower
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by BuddhaFollower » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:57 pm

I'm going to stick with Tantra.

Can accomplish whole path in 1 lifetime.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:01 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:I'm going to stick with tantra.

Can accomplish whole path in 1 lifetime.

Yes, that is what we practice, but we study sūtra to understand what it is that tantra is seeking to accomplish so rapidly, and also so that we maintain a correct Madhyamaka view. To some extent the latter is not strictly necessary, because even Yogacarins attain full awakening through the sadhana method even though in post-equipoise their view is a little extreme. This being so, there is much hope for both gzhan stong pas and their mirror image, the Gelugpas.

smcj
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by smcj » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:08 pm

Unless someone is some kind of emanation (which cannot be externally ascertained), we can assume that having been born in the desire realm, we are very much beginners on the path.
Statistically? Yes. Specifically? No, regardless of whether or not you retroactively deem someone an "emanation".
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:12 pm

smcj wrote:
Unless someone is some kind of emanation (which cannot be externally ascertained), we can assume that having been born in the desire realm, we are very much beginners on the path.
Statistically? Yes. Specifically? No, regardless of whether or not you retroactively deem someone an "emanation".
The point still stands, however, no one attains Buddhahood in the desire realm.

smcj
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by smcj » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:15 pm

Malcolm wrote: The point still stands, however, no one attains Buddhahood in the desire realm.
Sakyamuni? Padmasmbhava? Bodhidharma?
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:19 pm

smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote: The point still stands, however, no one attains Buddhahood in the desire realm.
Sakyamuni? Padmasmbhava? Bodhidharma?
The latter two were emanations, I don't know if Bodhidharma was a Buddha or not.

BuddhaFollower
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by BuddhaFollower » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
Unless someone is some kind of emanation (which cannot be externally ascertained), we can assume that having been born in the desire realm, we are very much beginners on the path.
Statistically? Yes. Specifically? No, regardless of whether or not you retroactively deem someone an "emanation".
The point still stands, however, no one attains Buddhahood in the desire realm.
What about KDL?
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:30 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:
What about KDL?
Through sutrayāna, I should have clarified.

BuddhaFollower
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by BuddhaFollower » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:35 pm

Ok
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Challenge23
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Challenge23 » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
Even then it takes three incalculable eons, Chan is no shortcut.
Ah yes, but nobody knows whether or not somebody has already put in 2.9999 eons of work into it already!
Well, it takes two incalculable eons achieve the eighth bhumi. It takes another eon after that to attain full awakening. Moreover, actual buddhahood does not happen in desire realm, but rather in Akanistha Gaṇḍavyuha in the presence of the Sambhogakāya. Only emanations appear to attain buddhahood here.

Please forgive me, but I'm a little confused.

If actual buddhahood doesn't happen in the desire realm, then how does any Buddhist method work at all, especially Vajrayana which promises Enlightenment in one desire realm lifetime?
IN THIS BOOK IT IS SPOKEN OF THE SEPHIROTH & THE PATHS, OF SPIRITS & CONJURATIONS, OF GODS, SPHERES, PLANES & MANY OTHER THINGS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST. IT IS IMMATERIAL WHETHER THEY EXIST OR NOT. BY DOING CERTAIN THINGS CERTAIN RESULTS FOLLOW; STUDENTS ARE MOST EARNESTLY WARNED AGAINST ATTRIBUTING OBJECTIVE REALITY OR PHILOSOPHICAL VALIDITY TO ANY OF THEM.

Wagner, Eric; Wilson, Robert Anton (2004-12-01). An Insider's Guide to Robert Anton Wilson (Kindle Locations 1626-1629). New Falcon Publications. Kindle Edition., quoting from Alister Crowley

BuddhaFollower
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by BuddhaFollower » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:42 pm

Challenge23 wrote: Please forgive me, but I'm a little confused.

If actual buddhahood doesn't happen in the desire realm, then how does any Buddhist method work at all, especially Vajrayana which promises Enlightenment in one desire realm lifetime?
Maybe you missed his clarification above:
Malcolm wrote: Through sutrayāna, I should have clarified.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:44 pm

Challenge23 wrote:
Please forgive me, but I'm a little confused.

If actual buddhahood doesn't happen in the desire realm, then how does any Buddhist method work at all, especially Vajrayana which promises Enlightenment in one desire realm lifetime?
As to your first question, if you are common Mahāyāna practitioner, you are already know the path is long and so you do not practice with the expectation of achieving buddhahood in this lifetime.

As to your second, Vajrayāna has special methods.

smcj
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by smcj » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:45 pm

I'd like to take this current train of thought and try applying it to a popular subject here at DW; Direct Introduction. I have an admittedly odd perspective on this because it comes from my Gelug background, in which the whole subject of Direct Introduction is not much discussed. My teacher said that, although it appears as if a simple finger-snap (or whatever method utilized) precipitates realization in someone, it is not actually the case. The work of accumulating merit and awareness has been accomplished in previous lifetimes and is simply not seen by the outside observer. Direct Introduction is simply unlocking the front door to the home that has already been built. (My analogy, not his.)
If actual buddhahood doesn't happen in the desire realm, then how does any Buddhist method work at all, especially Vajrayana which promises Enlightenment in one desire realm lifetime?
Malcolm's currently talking from a Sutrayana perspective on this subject. The Vajrayana says that this human life, the here and now of having the opportunity to practice Dharma, is the most perfect opportunity to attain buddhahood. You need a physical body to do advanced tantric practices, so it is even better than a Pure Land. In fact, it is a Pure Land.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

Sherlock
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Sherlock » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:48 pm

I thought 1st bhumi used to be quite common?
It's more of the progress through the other bhumis that takes 3 kalpas.

On the other hand there are some sutras that say you can instantly go from 1st to 10th bhumi which Chan quotes.

Sherlock
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Sherlock » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:50 pm

smcj wrote:I'd like to take this current train of thought and try applying it to a popular subject here at DW; Direct Introduction. I have an admittedly odd perspective on this because it comes from my Gelug background, in which the whole subject of Direct Introduction is not much discussed. My teacher said that, although it appears as if a simple finger-snap (or whatever method utilized) precipitates realization in someone, it is not actually the case. The work of accumulating merit and awareness has been accomplished in previous lifetimes and is simply not seen by the outside observer. Direct Introduction is simply unlocking the front door to the home that has already been built. (My analogy, not his.)
If actual buddhahood doesn't happen in the desire realm, then how does any Buddhist method work at all, especially Vajrayana which promises Enlightenment in one desire realm lifetime?
Malcolm's currently talking from a Sutrayana perspective on this subject. The Vajrayana says that this human life, the here and now of having the opportunity to practice Dharma, is the most perfect opportunity to attain buddhahood. You need a physical body to do advanced tantric practices, so it is even better than a Pure Land. In fact, it is a Pure Land.
Direct ibtroductio is not enlightenment.

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:52 pm

Sherlock wrote:I thought 1st bhumi used to be quite common?
It's more of the progress through the other bhumis that takes 3 kalpas.

On the other hand there are some sutras that say you can instantly go from 1st to 10th bhumi which Chan quotes.
Sūtras such as?

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