What kind of mind do Buddhas have

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Challenge23
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Challenge23 » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Challenge23 wrote:
Please forgive me, but I'm a little confused.

If actual buddhahood doesn't happen in the desire realm, then how does any Buddhist method work at all, especially Vajrayana which promises Enlightenment in one desire realm lifetime?
As to your first question, if you are common Mahāyāna practitioner, you are already know the path is long and so you do not practice with the expectation of achieving buddhahood in this lifetime.

As to your second, Vajrayāna has special methods.
Ahh. That makes more sense. And I didn't see your clarification that you were speaking exclusively about sutrayana practice. I apologize. Thank you.
IN THIS BOOK IT IS SPOKEN OF THE SEPHIROTH & THE PATHS, OF SPIRITS & CONJURATIONS, OF GODS, SPHERES, PLANES & MANY OTHER THINGS WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT EXIST. IT IS IMMATERIAL WHETHER THEY EXIST OR NOT. BY DOING CERTAIN THINGS CERTAIN RESULTS FOLLOW; STUDENTS ARE MOST EARNESTLY WARNED AGAINST ATTRIBUTING OBJECTIVE REALITY OR PHILOSOPHICAL VALIDITY TO ANY OF THEM.

Wagner, Eric; Wilson, Robert Anton (2004-12-01). An Insider's Guide to Robert Anton Wilson (Kindle Locations 1626-1629). New Falcon Publications. Kindle Edition., quoting from Alister Crowley

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:54 pm

Sherlock wrote:I thought 1st bhumi used to be quite common?
It's more of the progress through the other bhumis that takes 3 kalpas.
path of accumulation to 8th bhumi two incalculable eons; 8-10, one incalculable eon.

On the other hand there are some sutras that say you can instantly go from 1st to 10th bhumi which Chan quotes.
Such as?

Sherlock
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Sherlock » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherlock wrote:I thought 1st bhumi used to be quite common?
It's more of the progress through the other bhumis that takes 3 kalpas.

On the other hand there are some sutras that say you can instantly go from 1st to 10th bhumi which Chan quotes.
Sūtras such as?
Nubchen just says "the prajnaparamita" so I assume its one version of the Prajnaparanita.

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:55 pm

Challenge23 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Challenge23 wrote:
Please forgive me, but I'm a little confused.

If actual buddhahood doesn't happen in the desire realm, then how does any Buddhist method work at all, especially Vajrayana which promises Enlightenment in one desire realm lifetime?
As to your first question, if you are common Mahāyāna practitioner, you are already know the path is long and so you do not practice with the expectation of achieving buddhahood in this lifetime.

As to your second, Vajrayāna has special methods.
Ahh. That makes more sense. And I didn't see your clarification that you were speaking exclusively about sutrayana practice. I apologize. Thank you.
Of course Chan people think this is all bullshit.

Sherlock
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Sherlock » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:56 pm

I am not a Chan person, I just follow Nubchen, Rongzom, Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa, ChNN

smcj
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by smcj » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:58 pm

Sherlock wrote: Direct introduction is not enlightenment.
Not always, but Tilopa smacking Naropa in the head with his shoe was a type of Direct Introduction.
Last edited by smcj on Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by BuddhaFollower » Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:59 pm

Sherlock wrote:I am not a Chan person, I just follow Nubchen, Rongzom, Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa, ChNN
Consider Rigzin Godem, rather than Longchenpa/Jigme Lingpa:

http://www.atikosha.org/2012/09/a-preli ... itras.html
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:07 pm

Sherlock wrote:I am not a Chan person, I just follow Nubchen, Rongzom, Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa, ChNN
If one can achieve Buddhahood in a single life via Chan there is no reason to follow Vajrayāna at all, let alone Dzogchen.

You have yet to produce your sutra citations.

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LastLegend
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by LastLegend » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:08 pm

To my Chan folk,

The Buddha said, "Only after undergoing innumerable hardships for three asankhya kalpas did I achieve enlightenment," Why do you now say that simply beholding the mind and over-coming the three poisons is liberation?

The words of the Buddha are true. But the three-asankhya kalpas refer to the three poisoned states of mind. What we call asankhya in Sanskrit you call countless. Within these three poisoned states of mind are countless evil thoughts, And every thought lasts a kalpa. Such an infinity is what the Buddha meant by the three asankhya kalpas, Once the three poisons obscure your real self, how can you be called liberated until you overcome their countless evil thoughts? People who can transform the three poisons of greed, anger, and delusion into the three releases are said to pass through the three-sankhya kalpas. But people of this final age are the densest of fools. They don’t understand what the Tathagata really meant by the three-asankhya kalpas. They say enlightenment is only achieved after endless kalpas and thereby mislead disciples to retreat on the path to Buddhahood.
Within that state of clarity, there is a knowing that is not relying on anything.

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:10 pm

Sherlock wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sherlock wrote:I thought 1st bhumi used to be quite common?
It's more of the progress through the other bhumis that takes 3 kalpas.

On the other hand there are some sutras that say you can instantly go from 1st to 10th bhumi which Chan quotes.
Sūtras such as?
Nubchen just says "the prajnaparamita" so I assume its one version of the Prajnaparanita.
Where does Nubchen say this. Then it is easy find out if the citation really exists in the PP sūtras.

Sherlock
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Sherlock » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherlock wrote:I am not a Chan person, I just follow Nubchen, Rongzom, Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa, ChNN
If one can achieve Buddhahood in a single life via Chan there is no reason to follow Vajrayāna at all, let alone Dzogchen.

You have yet to produce your sutra citations.
One can go from 1st bhumi to 10th with Chan. It is based on having achieved 1st bhumi already if not then it is like other sutra.

The citation is translated in SMS Level 1 text, 2008 edition.

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:12 pm

Sherlock wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sherlock wrote:I am not a Chan person, I just follow Nubchen, Rongzom, Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa, ChNN
If one can achieve Buddhahood in a single life via Chan there is no reason to follow Vajrayāna at all, let alone Dzogchen.

You have yet to produce your sutra citations.
One can go from 1st bhumi to 10th with Chan. It is based on having achieved 1st bhumi already if not then it is like other sutra.

The citation is translated in SMS Level 1 text, 2008 edition.
What section?

Malcolm
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:15 pm

Sherlock wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sherlock wrote:I am not a Chan person, I just follow Nubchen, Rongzom, Longchenpa, Jigme Lingpa, ChNN
If one can achieve Buddhahood in a single life via Chan there is no reason to follow Vajrayāna at all, let alone Dzogchen.

You have yet to produce your sutra citations.
One can go from 1st bhumi to 10th with Chan. It is based on having achieved 1st bhumi already if not then it is like other sutra.
People make this claim, but have nothing with which to back it up, making truly lame excuses like Rongom that the path is so fast one does not have have time to accumulate merit to manifest the qualities of the bhumis (which are actually measures of qualities and not realizations). Generally, I like Rongzom, but sometimes he makes very unfounded and rash assertions.

Sherlock
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Sherlock » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:16 pm

The section of questions and answers about Chan. I will give the page nunber when I get home.

smcj
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by smcj » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:18 pm

If one can achieve Buddhahood in a single life via Chan there is no reason to follow Vajrayāna at all...
I think a distinction should be made between "in a single life" and "in this very life". Milarepa did it in a single life, that life was his first practicing Dharma. But since most vehicles say enlightenment is a multi lifetime endeavor we can safely assume that some people have been working on it for a while. How long that is only a buddha could see/know. So our opinions on how far anyone is away from the "finish line" have no validity whatsoever. "In this very life" could be anyone and with any practice. We don't know. A simple finger-snap could do it.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that, through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by BuddhaFollower » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:26 pm

I never heard of a Chan/Zen person realizing Samyaksambuddhahood.

Chan/Zen bodhi, satori etc. is not Samyaksambuddhahood.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

Sherlock
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Sherlock » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:43 pm

Page 204, Nubchen quotes shes rab pha rol

Sherlock
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by Sherlock » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherlock wrote: One can go from 1st bhumi to 10th with Chan. It is based on having achieved 1st bhumi already if not then it is like other sutra.
People make this claim, but have nothing with which to back it up, making truly lame excuses like Rongom that the path is so fast one does not have have time to accumulate merit to manifest the qualities of the bhumis (which are actually measures of qualities and not realizations). Generally, I like Rongzom, but sometimes he makes very unfounded and rash assertions.
Isn't a similar reasoning used for Dzogchen?

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LastLegend
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by LastLegend » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:04 pm

"World Honored One, in what should good sons and good daughters initiating the annutara-samyak-sambodhicitta dwell? How should they regulate their thoughts?"

The Buddha replied: "Excellent, excellent! Subhuti, as you have said, the tathagata is skillfully mindful of the bodhisattvas, and skillful in entrusting to the bodhisattvas. If you now listen closely, I shall explain for you in what good sons and good daughters launching the anuttara-samyak-sambodhi mind should thus abide, and how thus they should regulate their thoughts."

The Buddha told Subhuti: "Bodhisattva-mahasattvas should thus regulate their thoughts: 'Where there is every single sort of being -- whether womb-born, whether egg-born, whether water-born, or born of transformation; whether possessing form or whether without form; whether possessing thought or whether without thought; whether neither possessing thought nor without thought -- I will cause all to enter the non-residual nirvana, liberating them. Thus liberating the immeasurably boundless beings, in reality there are no beings attaining that liberation.' What is the reason? Subhuti, if a bodhisattva has the view of a self, the view of a person, the view of beings, or the view of a soul; then he is not a bodhisattva.


By beings, Buddha means thoughts. Basically the recipe for meditation, in the word of Vietnamese Zen Master Thich Thanh Tu, meditation is "reflecting the light inward." That is illuminate inward. Notice, "no view of liberation" is attained, and this due to the teaching of emptiness. So this passage is in line with the passage I posted in the previous post.
Within that state of clarity, there is a knowing that is not relying on anything.

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LastLegend
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Re: What kind of mind do Buddhas have

Post by LastLegend » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:27 pm

If the teaching of emptiness means there is no view to obtain, then "reflecting the light inward" can only mean one thing: nurture this miraculously aware nature. That is the point of "reflecting the light inward." Chan recognizes this mind is Buddha, and apart from it there is no Buddha, this is a very important point. It needs to be emphasized. If this mind is Buddha, then Buddha does not look for Buddha but to refine this aware nature.
Within that state of clarity, there is a knowing that is not relying on anything.

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