Analysis or Nothing

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Astus
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Analysis or Nothing

Post by Astus »

If, as Kamalashila states, analysis is a necessary element of the path, it excludes all other options to reach insight into the nature of reality. Consequently, there can be no direct methods (pointing to the nature of mind, empowerment, direct introduction, etc.) that avoid using analysis. How can it be argued that the popular methods lacking the conceptual methods of discerning appearances are valid?

"Those who do not meditate with wisdom by analysing individually the entity of things, but merely meditate on elimination of mental activity, cannot avert conceptual thoughts and also cannot realise identitylessness because one lacks the light of wisdom. If the fire of consciousness knowing phenomena as they are is produced from individual analysis of suchness, then like the fire produced by rubbing wood it will burn the wood of conceptual thought."
(Middle Stages of Meditation)

"Thus it is on the basis of obtaining unobscured knowledge that one understands every single teaching of the Buddha. Hence without the discernment of reality there is no arising of perfect knowledge, nor also the abandonment of the afflictive obscurations."
(Necessity of Bhutapratyaveksa, Bhavanakrama 3, in Martin T. Adams: Meditation and The Concept of Insight in Kamalasila's Bhavanakramas (thesis), p 247)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote:If, as Kamalashila states, analysis is a necessary element of the path, it excludes all other options to reach insight into the nature of reality. Consequently, there can be no direct methods (pointing to the nature of mind, empowerment, direct introduction, etc.) that avoid using analysis. How can it be argued that the popular methods lacking the conceptual methods of discerning appearances are valid?

"Those who do not meditate with wisdom by analysing individually the entity of things, but merely meditate on elimination of mental activity, cannot avert conceptual thoughts and also cannot realise identitylessness because one lacks the light of wisdom. If the fire of consciousness knowing phenomena as they are is produced from individual analysis of suchness, then like the fire produced by rubbing wood it will burn the wood of conceptual thought."
(Middle Stages of Meditation)

"Thus it is on the basis of obtaining unobscured knowledge that one understands every single teaching of the Buddha. Hence without the discernment of reality there is no arising of perfect knowledge, nor also the abandonment of the afflictive obscurations."
(Necessity of Bhutapratyaveksa, Bhavanakrama 3, in Martin T. Adams: Meditation and The Concept of Insight in Kamalasila's Bhavanakramas (thesis), p 247)
He is talking about sutra. It does not apply to Vajrayāna. Apples and oranges.
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by muni »

Investigation how Phenomena are, whether inner or outer is in order to realize how all appears and how all is as own nature. There are many tools for that, isn't?

The analytical mind has temporary its’ purpose to get insightful soap to clean own perception and to stop grasping/clinging to solid things. Only when we cling to the analytical, then it is not a cure anymore.

:namaste:
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote:He is talking about sutra. It does not apply to Vajrayāna. Apples and oranges.
How so? Vajrayana doesn't aim at a different emptiness, does it?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:He is talking about sutra. It does not apply to Vajrayāna. Apples and oranges.
How so? Vajrayana doesn't aim at a different emptiness, does it?
Sūtra works with analysis, Vajrayāna works with experiences.
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Astus
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by Astus »

muni wrote:There are many tools for that, isn't?
What other tool is there but correct analysis?
muni wrote:Only when we cling to the analytical, then it is not a cure anymore.
That happens only when the analysis is not performed correctly and completely.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote:
What other tool is there but correct analysis?
In Sūtra? None.
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Astus
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote:Sūtra works with analysis, Vajrayāna works with experiences.
How can experience make one understand suchness, when the error lies not in what is experienced but in how that experienced thing is viewed?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by MalaBeads »

Astus,

When you view the rising or setting sun, do you analyze it or view it? Is that an experience or not? It is something like that. Wherein one experiences the sun instead of analyzing it. But it is only something like that.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by muni »

Only when we cling to the analytical, then it is not a cure anymore.

Astus: That happens only when the analysis is not performed correctly and completely.
I agree with this. In fact, for me, study of the teaching is by the analytical mind, which then is reflected or contemplated. How other ways should there be study of phenomena dharma, since all relative dharma is phenomenal. For what you post as “the light of wisdom”, there must be certitude and all doubts erased so that further analysis isn’t anymore.

There are direct approaches which include both; the seeing/experience of nature of phenomena-own nature as indivisible, as nature ( dependence-emptiness). This needs guidance. Other ways you have an identity seeing other things, other identities. This means not there have never ever been any preceding analysis.

:namaste:
Last edited by muni on Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Sūtra works with analysis, Vajrayāna works with experiences.
How can experience make one understand suchness, when the error lies not in what is experienced but in how that experienced thing is viewed?
There is no experience outside of suchness. Therefore, experiences can be used to introduce suchness.
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

The analysis of which you speak is a deconstructing of apparent phenomena. It is discovering what the material world isn't. The first corollary is the understanding that, since nothing anywhere is ultimately "real", it is our own ideation of what constitutes "real" that is itself an error. If we have an ideation of unicorns, and no unicorns exist, that idea is a fiction. If we have an ideation of what "real" would be, and there is no such thing, then our idea of "real" is itself a fiction.

Having brought the intellect to its full fruition in Dharma, and having it checkmated on its own terms thus, at that point we can leave the intellect behind. "What's next?" you may ask. Well, if you are in the Dudjom style camp of Vajrayana, faith is the next step. Having seen what the material world isn't, your mind can open to the possibility of what actually is.

If Dzogcehen or Mahamudra can be pointed out and experienced directly, then fine. If not, then they are still accessible through faith and the Vajrayana. Either way is beyond the confines of intellect. Nagarjuna is the "event horizon" for the intellect, much like the boundary for a black hole. Only it is the boundary as seen from inside the black hole, beyond which the intellect cannot go.
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by DGA »

Astus wrote:If, as Kamalashila states, analysis is a necessary element of the path, it excludes all other options to reach insight into the nature of reality.
Hi Astus,

I don't follow your premise here. Is it not plausible that analysis may be necessary at some points in the path, and other options necessary at other times? Just as needing to use my feet to walk sometimes is a necessary part of the path, it doesn't mean that I can't also ride my bicycle sometimes, or take a train.
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by Caodemarte »

Exactly how is analysis defined by Kamalasila in this context?
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by Punya »

Sūtra works with analysis, Vajrayāna works with experiences.
This was once explained to me as: if you have heard about and had described to you an exotic asian fruit this is not the same as actualy tasting it.

To use analysis is to use the conceptual mind and my understanding is that Vajrayana is seeking to go beyond concepts. Judith Simmer-Brown in the Dakini's Warm Breath explains it this way:
Eventually rather than focusing on dualistic tendencies of the mind which allow no escape from pain, meditation practice moves the practitioner from normal preoccupation with conceptual topics, sense perceptions and emotional states to unnoticed aspects of experience. What dawns is a new kind of subjectivity, a capacity to know conceptually the actual knowing process itself which is non-dual awakened awareness
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by anjali »

Astus wrote:"Those who do not meditate with wisdom by analysing individually the entity of things..."
This is probably a reference to the second of the seven factors of enlightenment: dharma-pravicaya.
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by Astus »

MalaBeads wrote:When you view the rising or setting sun, do you analyze it or view it? Is that an experience or not? It is something like that. Wherein one experiences the sun instead of analyzing it. But it is only something like that.
One may watch the rising sun without a single thought, but it makes no difference in one's view of the world. Such thoughtless moments happen to everyone. But it does not bring about the realisation that appearances are without substance.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by Astus »

Malcolm wrote:There is no experience outside of suchness. Therefore, experiences can be used to introduce suchness.
Experiences are already such, but not everyone sees in such a way. What occludes such seeing are not experiences in general but the identification with some of them, thus establishing a self, and the habitual substantialisation of appearances, that is, attachment to concepts. If even temporary cessation of ideation cannot overcome that fundamental ignorance, what kind of experience is it that can?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Malcolm
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by Malcolm »

Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:There is no experience outside of suchness. Therefore, experiences can be used to introduce suchness.
Experiences are already such, but not everyone sees in such a way. What occludes such seeing are not experiences in general but the identification with some of them, thus establishing a self, and the habitual substantialisation of appearances, that is, attachment to concepts. If even temporary cessation of ideation cannot overcome that fundamental ignorance, what kind of experience is it that can?
Hence, the purpose of introduction. For example, one may seen faces in a crowd everyday and never recognize them; but when they are introduced to you, you will never fail to recognize them again.
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Re: Analysis or Nothing

Post by Astus »

smcj wrote:"What's next?" you may ask.
There is no next. The end of conceptualisation (grasping at a false essence) is the attainment of the ultimate view, prajnaparamita itself.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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