What is an external object?

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Temicco
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What is an external object?

Post by Temicco » Sun May 01, 2016 9:17 pm

So, I've read that "to see objects as external is noetic projection". But what kinds of things exactly count as external objects? Is it a list of specific dharmas? What is included and what is not?
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan

ཚེ་འདི་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ཆོས་པ་མིན། །
འཁོར་བ་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ངེས་འབྱུང་མིན། །
བདག་དོན་ལ་ཞེན་ན་བྱང་སེམས་མིན། །
འཛིན་པ་བྱུང་ན་ལྟ་བ་མིན། །

SeeLion
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by SeeLion » Sun May 01, 2016 10:50 pm

Anything, a pencil, a person, your foot.

This statement is kind of obvious, no need to look for something complicated.

AlexMcLeod
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by AlexMcLeod » Mon May 02, 2016 1:52 am

Temicco wrote:So, I've read that "to see objects as external is noetic projection". But what kinds of things exactly count as external objects? Is it a list of specific dharmas? What is included and what is not?
This statement means that everything that appears to be not you, is actually not separate. The appearance of separation is mental projection.
Relax! Smile From The Heart!
There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Mon May 02, 2016 10:06 am

In general there are two types of phenomenon: inner and outer. Inner phenomena are those that are conjoined with a continuum of consciousness, and outer phenomena are those that are not. 'Outer' can also be read as 'external'

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conebeckham
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by conebeckham » Mon May 02, 2016 9:57 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:In general there are two types of phenomenon: inner and outer. Inner phenomena are those that are conjoined with a continuum of consciousness, and outer phenomena are those that are not. 'Outer' can also be read as 'external'
This is an interesting idea.
As an example, let's discuss the flowerpot in front of me. Is it external? Outer?

What does "conjoined with a continuum of consciousness" mean? If I perceive the flowerpot, and think about it, noting it's color, shape, etc., is it not then conjoined with consciousness?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

SeeLion
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by SeeLion » Tue May 03, 2016 9:10 pm

I think that if you look at the flowerpot and know it to be a mental visual representation, that's an internal object.

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conebeckham
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by conebeckham » Tue May 03, 2016 11:21 pm

If you perceive a flowerpot and have labeled it as such, without recognizing the conceptual nature of this object, is it then an "external object?"
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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randomseb
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by randomseb » Fri May 13, 2016 6:23 am

If you make "flowerpot" as a mental object, it is an external object. If you make "I am thinking of a flowerport", then this is also an external object. There is no internal, how can anything be other than external? And how can there be any external object when there is no such thing as "internal or external"?

Stop making conceptual discrimination.
Disclaimer: If I have posted about something, then I obviously have no idea what I am talking about!

pael
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by pael » Mon May 16, 2016 1:26 pm

Does external appearances arise from internal phenomenon? Elements are created by mind? Does Avatamsaka sutra and Lankavatara sutra say this?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

muni
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by muni » Fri May 20, 2016 3:23 pm

pael wrote:Does external appearances arise from internal phenomenon? Elements are created by mind? Does Avatamsaka sutra and Lankavatara sutra say this?
Like you say, Pael. :namaste:
Lankavatara says phenomena/appearances are products of our mind, they have no any existence on themselves. Clinging to thoughts or believing them, are making these appearances solid as they were existing on themselves. Or the external are seen so as being external by the split the thinking mind makes, a split of itself and an outerworld.

Then when this split by recovering practices loses; peace, compassion flourish.
The Avatamsaka Sutra is a Mahayana Buddhist scripture that reveals how reality appears to an enlightened being. It is best known for its sumptuous descriptions of the inter-existence of all phenomena. The Avatamsaka also describes the stages of development of a bodhisattva.
The presence of space makes it possible for the whole universe to be set out within it, and yet this does not alter or condition space in any way. Although rainbows appear in the sky, they do not make any difference to the sky; it is simply that the sky makes the appearance of rainbows possible.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Thu May 26, 2016 4:11 pm

conebeckham wrote: This is an interesting idea.
As an example, let's discuss the flowerpot in front of me. Is it external? Outer?

What does "conjoined with a continuum of consciousness" mean? If I perceive the flowerpot, and think about it, noting it's color, shape, etc., is it not then conjoined with consciousness?
The flowerpot in front of you is an outer phenomenon. If you imagine a flowerpot, it is an inner phenomenon because it is appearing to your mental consciousness.

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conebeckham
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by conebeckham » Thu May 26, 2016 4:41 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
conebeckham wrote: This is an interesting idea.
As an example, let's discuss the flowerpot in front of me. Is it external? Outer?

What does "conjoined with a continuum of consciousness" mean? If I perceive the flowerpot, and think about it, noting it's color, shape, etc., is it not then conjoined with consciousness?
The flowerpot in front of you is an outer phenomenon. If you imagine a flowerpot, it is an inner phenomenon because it is appearing to your mental consciousness.
We agree as to the difference between external and internal flowerpots, then. :smile: It seems some members feel otherwise, though...which is interesting, eh? One minor point of clarification, though...this "external flowerpot" is actually not the material of our mind. That's why I pointed out that both internal and external flowerpots are "conjoined with consciousness."
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Iconodule
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by Iconodule » Thu May 26, 2016 4:47 pm

My understanding of the basic Buddhist cosmology is that all external phenomena, including landscapes, social conditions, weather, etc.- are the fruition of karma and so ultimately products of mind as well.
Enter eagerly into the treasure house that lies within you, and so you will see the treasure house of heaven. For the two are the same, and there is but on single entry to them both. The ladder that leads to the Kingdom is hidden within you, and is found in your soul. Dive into yourself, and in your soul you will discover the rungs by which you are to ascend. - Saint Isaac of Syria

Temicco
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by Temicco » Thu May 26, 2016 6:08 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote: The flowerpot in front of you is an outer phenomenon. If you imagine a flowerpot, it is an inner phenomenon because it is appearing to your mental consciousness.
Why is the flower pot in front of you an outer phenomenon? Wouldn't it be being cognized by, for example, your eye vijnana? And what about the actual mental act of perception of a flower pot?
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan

ཚེ་འདི་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ཆོས་པ་མིན། །
འཁོར་བ་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ངེས་འབྱུང་མིན། །
བདག་དོན་ལ་ཞེན་ན་བྱང་སེམས་མིན། །
འཛིན་པ་བྱུང་ན་ལྟ་བ་མིན། །

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conebeckham
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by conebeckham » Thu May 26, 2016 6:19 pm

Temicco wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote: The flowerpot in front of you is an outer phenomenon. If you imagine a flowerpot, it is an inner phenomenon because it is appearing to your mental consciousness.
Why is the flower pot in front of you an outer phenomenon? Wouldn't it be being cognized by, for example, your eye vijnana? And what about the actual mental act of perception of a flower pot?
We must use convention when speaking about appearing objects. They appear "outside" of us, and we therefore refer to them as "External."

Of course, the mental image, or the "perception" or cognition "Flowerpot" is internal, as, in reality, is all experience we have.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Fri May 27, 2016 7:51 am

conebeckham wrote:
Temicco wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote: The flowerpot in front of you is an outer phenomenon. If you imagine a flowerpot, it is an inner phenomenon because it is appearing to your mental consciousness.
Why is the flower pot in front of you an outer phenomenon? Wouldn't it be being cognized by, for example, your eye vijnana? And what about the actual mental act of perception of a flower pot?
We must use convention when speaking about appearing objects. They appear "outside" of us, and we therefore refer to them as "External."

Of course, the mental image, or the "perception" or cognition "Flowerpot" is internal, as, in reality, is all experience we have.
What he said! :smile:

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Grigoris
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 27, 2016 8:46 am

conebeckham wrote:We must use convention when speaking about appearing objects. They appear "outside" of us, and we therefore refer to them as "External."

Of course, the mental image, or the "perception" or cognition "Flowerpot" is internal, as, in reality, is all experience we have.
So is a flowerpot that is not being perceived an internal or external object?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

AlexMcLeod
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by AlexMcLeod » Fri May 27, 2016 12:40 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
conebeckham wrote:We must use convention when speaking about appearing objects. They appear "outside" of us, and we therefore refer to them as "External."

Of course, the mental image, or the "perception" or cognition "Flowerpot" is internal, as, in reality, is all experience we have.
So is a flowerpot that is not being perceived an internal or external object?
Yes, depending on what you mean by not being perceived. If you mean that it is what we call a physical object and you can't use your senses to perceive it, say a wall is between you, it is still classified as external, because conventionally speaking, it is a physical object and not inside what you call you. However, if the same flowerpot is viewed by a memory, that memory is an internal object, conventionally speaking.
Relax! Smile From The Heart!
There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.

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Grigoris
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by Grigoris » Fri May 27, 2016 12:43 pm

AlexMcLeod wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
conebeckham wrote:We must use convention when speaking about appearing objects. They appear "outside" of us, and we therefore refer to them as "External."

Of course, the mental image, or the "perception" or cognition "Flowerpot" is internal, as, in reality, is all experience we have.
So is a flowerpot that is not being perceived an internal or external object?
Yes, depending on what you mean by not being perceived. If you mean that it is what we call a physical object and you can't use your senses to perceive it, say a wall is between you, it is still classified as external, because conventionally speaking, it is a physical object and not inside what you call you. However, if the same flowerpot is viewed by a memory, that memory is an internal object, conventionally speaking.
But if I am not perceiving it then how do I know it is outside of me? Can there be an outside without an inside? An internal without an external?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

pothigai
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Re: What is an external object?

Post by pothigai » Fri May 27, 2016 1:52 pm

Nobody will be able to give a coherent answer to the initial question, beyond the conventional meaning of 'external'. I think that's the point; if we can't posit a coherent notion of what an external object is, then it seems that we must stay silent on the issue.
ہستی اپنی حباب کی سی ہے
یہ نمائش سراب کی سی ہے

hasti apni habaab ki si hai
yeh numaaish saraab ki si hai

Like a bubble is your existence
This display is like an illusion

- Mir Taqi Mir (1725-1810)

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