Enlightenment success rate

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Malcolm
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:22 am

smcj wrote:
Awareness is an inadequate, unattested, unjustified rendering for rig pa.
You wouldn't have perchance attended the recently concluded translator's conference in Boulder would you? You could've raised the issue there.
It was raised with many people.
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:31 am

Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
It is really quite simple. This translation, one of the earliest made of a Dzogchen introduction text, was made in 1985, 32 years ago. Both teachers with whom Reynolds consulted were not fluent in English at the time this translation was made. We have made considerable progress in Dzogchen studies since that time. This should not be construed as a criticism of Reynolds, he did his best with limited resources.

The use of "awareness" for rig pa in Dzogchen translations has become a chronic issue, one that causes a great deal of misunderstanding, and one it seems few translators have the courage to face. There are really no good words in English which capture the full semantic range of the term rig pa as it is used in Dzogchen, just as "avocado sauce" does not really capture the meaning of the term "guacamole" (from Nahuatl ahuacamolli, from ahuacatl ‘avocado’ + molli ‘sauce.'). Given this, it is as useful to translate rig pa as "awareness" as it would be to translate rig pa as "guacamole."
I get your point, but ChNN also uses the term awareness.
Is there another more recent translation of this treatise that you can recommend?
There is Gyurme Dorje's, but it suffers from the same issue. Awareness is an inadequate, unattested, unjustified rendering for rig pa. I am afraid we are stuck with it until enough people have studied enough primary commentaries so the tides shift in a better direction.
Would you agree that the naming of it is not the actual point?

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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:37 am

Astus wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:My view is unimportant.
If so, then why say "It is worthless without your own engagement, just like repeating Madhyamaka views. It's quite boring, actually to listen to it all. There's no energy in this kind of repetition." :?:

As for my take on the matter of inherent enlightenment, the true nature of mind, etc., it is too easy to mistake these expressions as some sort of ultimate self, while the whole point is just to recognise that this whole realm of experiences is unestablished as it is, and that non-abiding is the original nature of appearances.

"This dharma body is everything,
it is like an illusory dream, continuously changing.
The passions of greed, anger, and stupidity are all
invisible, changing, and immaterial, like flowing scum.
Observe clearly the human body.
It is not solid but fragile and inconsistent
(once separated, once reassembled).
All the intentions and all the calculations are empty."

(Dharma Flower Samadhi Sutra, T9n269p286b21-24, tr Nguyen Hien)
My only question to you is do you know this throughout your entire being? Otherwise, it is still intellectual.

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smcj
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by smcj » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:58 am

Otherwise, it is still intellectual.
Well, yeah. Whadya expect, some enlightened being is spending his time posting on DW?
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:16 am

smcj wrote:
Otherwise, it is still intellectual.
Well, yeah. Whadya expect, some enlightened being is spending his time posting on DW?
In another one of your posts, you mentioned that the level of understanding of most teachers are not even at the first bhumi. So, I don't expect some enlightened being posted on DW. What I do look for is a certain perspective that a poster might have towards all of this and their illusions about it. I think my statement still stands.

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Malcolm
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:18 am

Anonymous X wrote: Would you agree that the naming of it is not the actual point?
Knowledge and awareness are not the same thing.
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The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:32 am

Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: Would you agree that the naming of it is not the actual point?
Knowledge and awareness are not the same thing.
They may not be, but putting a name on either one doesn't help to give one the experience of it. By your own admission, you say that there is no common word for Rigpa that Dzogchen translators agree upon. I think at best, we get a concept of what is meant by the word, but that is not the actual experience of it.

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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by smcj » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:36 am

Anonymous X wrote:What I do look for is a certain perspective that a poster might have towards all of this and their illusions about it. I think my statement still stands.
It's not in the ToS or anything, but if someone claims to be speaking from their own non-intellectual personal experience they get shot down pretty quickly around here. It is effectively claiming spiritual accomplishment. (Exceptions are made for life experiences.) So quoting texts or recognized teachers is the way we have to substantiate our ideas as valid.

The only claim I will make about myself is that I'm clean and sober18 years and did it through NgonDro. I never did AA or rehab. Here at DW that means almost zero. It's seen as analogous to taking the precept against drinking alcohol. But in recovery terms 18 years are bragging rights. Fortunately the subject almost never comes up.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
*****
Once in a while you can get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Robert Hunter

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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:46 am

smcj wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:What I do look for is a certain perspective that a poster might have towards all of this and their illusions about it. I think my statement still stands.
It's not in the ToS or anything, but if someone claims to be speaking from their own non-intellectual personal experience they get shot down pretty quickly around here. It is effectively claiming spiritual accomplishment. (Exceptions are made for life experiences.) So quoting texts or recognized teachers is the way we have to substantiate our ideas as valid.

The only claim I will make about myself is that I'm clean and sober18 years and did it through NgonDro. I never did AA or rehab. Here at DW that means almost zero. It's seen as analogous to taking the precept against drinking alcohol. But in recovery terms 18 years are bragging rights. Fortunately the subject almost never comes up.
Your own accomplishment of sobriety stands on its own. You know the truth of it without me or anyone else corroborating it. It is the same with Dharma. You know it as your own state to one degree or another. If you want to talk about it, sure, words must be chosen, but only you know to what extent you are living it.

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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Astus » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:54 am

Anonymous X wrote:My only question to you is do you know this throughout your entire being? Otherwise, it is still intellectual.
Know what exactly? Whatever is written is necessarily a verbal-conceptual product. As for the intended meaning, that phenomena are unstable, that is directly perceivable to anyone. But, even though there has never been anything to cling to, it is exactly conceptualisation that creates the illusion of independent objects and subjects. So, what other knowledge is there but intellectual?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:29 am

Astus wrote:what other knowledge is there but intellectual?
How to make pottery. How to play the piano. How to raise a child. How to ski.


I could go on.
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Astus » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:38 am

Wayfarer wrote:How to make pottery. How to play the piano. How to raise a child. How to ski.
Do those knowledges reside in the mind or the body?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:10 pm

Astus wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:My only question to you is do you know this throughout your entire being? Otherwise, it is still intellectual.
Know what exactly? Whatever is written is necessarily a verbal-conceptual product. As for the intended meaning, that phenomena are unstable, that is directly perceivable to anyone. But, even though there has never been anything to cling to, it is exactly conceptualisation that creates the illusion of independent objects and subjects. So, what other knowledge is there but intellectual?
That is my whole point. Zongmi's Knowing/Jnana is not intellectual knowledge. There is no subject/object duality. If you've never experienced this, I can see how you could ask this question.

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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Astus » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:32 pm

Anonymous X wrote:Zongmi's Knowing/Jnana is not intellectual knowledge.
If you can tell what kind of knowledge it is, how is that not intellectual?
There is no subject/object duality. If you've never experienced this, I can see how you could ask this question.
As there is neither subject to experience it, nor object to be experienced, how could anyone ever experience it?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:14 pm

Astus wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:Zongmi's Knowing/Jnana is not intellectual knowledge.
If you can tell what kind of knowledge it is, how is that not intellectual?
There is no subject/object duality. If you've never experienced this, I can see how you could ask this question.
As there is neither subject to experience it, nor object to be experienced, how could anyone ever experience it?
I'll leave you to figure it out and come back with some more encyclopaedia explanations.

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Malcolm
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:20 pm

Anonymous X wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: Would you agree that the naming of it is not the actual point?
Knowledge and awareness are not the same thing.
They may not be, but putting a name on either one doesn't help to give one the experience of it. By your own admission, you say that there is no common word for Rigpa that Dzogchen translators agree upon. I think at best, we get a concept of what is meant by the word, but that is not the actual experience of it.
There may be no common agreement on what the word rig pa means among some translators, but the commentarial literature is extremely clear on what the word means— it means "knowledge" in general, and specifically, knowledge of the essence. The reason it is best not to use the term "knowledge" in Dzogchen translations, is that the term "knowledge" in English attenuates the meaning too narrowly. Rig pa is a knowledge, but it is a very special kind of knowledge. Rig by it self some cases in Dzogchen texts means "knowing," as in the phrase shes zhing rig, i.e. "consciousness and knowing," or one could say, "conscious and aware." But it never means the noun, "awareness." And commonly in its verbal form, rig bya, it means literally, "one should know."

The experiential knowledge indicated in Dzogchen by the term rig pa cannot be discovered independently, it can only be discovered on the basis of a teacher's intimate instruction. Those who disagree simply do not understand rig pa is in Dzogchen.
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:21 pm

Anonymous X wrote:I'll leave you to figure it out and come back with some more encyclopaedia explanations.
Since your response to conversations that reach certain results is aversion, I'd suggest not having them.
And nobody in all of Oz. No Wizard that there is or was.

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Malcolm
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:25 pm

Astus wrote:
Wayfarer wrote:How to make pottery. How to play the piano. How to raise a child. How to ski.
Do those knowledges reside in the mind or the body?
Both — the division between mind and body (nāmarūpa) is formal, not actual.
Atikosha
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Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Astus » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:Both — the division between mind and body (nāmarūpa) is formal, not actual.
In what interpretation? Rupa stands for earth, water, fire, and wind - neither of them carries any sentience. As for nama, it consists of feeling, perception, intention, contact, and attention - of those perception is associated with memory.

But if the distinction is taken away - i.e. it's all just mind - then again every form of knowledge is of the same kind.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Malcolm
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:08 pm

Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Both — the division between mind and body (nāmarūpa) is formal, not actual.
In what interpretation? Rupa stands for earth, water, fire, and wind - neither of them carries any sentience. .
There are no minds without bodies, and no bodies without minds. Mind and matter are coterminous.
Atikosha
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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