Enlightenment success rate

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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GoingHome
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by GoingHome » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:51 pm

AND, especially in the Pali Sutta, the Buddha continuously refers to "taints" and "stains" that need to be removed.
This statement is quite true. The fact is to become Buddha, one must remove all taints and obstructions. That is how Buddha was able to see the universe, karma, rebirth etc so clearly. The reason why some humans, heavenly beings, Arahat and above have supernatural powers is because they have removed some obstruction and became purer in body, speech and mind.
One cannot see the true path without clearing delusions.
Last edited by Grigoris on Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed the quote function error.

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Minobu
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Minobu » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:07 pm
Dzogchen, 100%.

Tao wrote:Not sure if this is the right place for this request but here I go.

I'm looking for references about enlightenment success rate references in any kind of buddhist doctrine or collective.

For example I recall reading in some book by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal (I think it was "Clarifying the natural state") that two thirds of the monks with some master reached the one-taste Mahamudra yoga but none of them was into non-meditation yoga.

I'm sorry for not being more specific in my example I can't recall more details...

Are there other references like this? (Mahayana or Vajrayana)

Thank you a lot. :namaste:
is that in this life 100% or at death or after death..
what are the percentage points ...for

this present incarnation;
at the moment of death;
after the initial death;
future births> not necessarily this realm ;

Anonymous X
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:34 am

GoingHome wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:51 pm
AND, especially in the Pali Sutta, the Buddha continuously refers to "taints" and "stains" that need to be removed.
This statement is quite true. The fact is to become Buddha, one must remove all taints and obstructions. That is how Buddha was able to see the universe, karma, rebirth etc so clearly. The reason why some humans, heavenly beings, Arahat and above have supernatural powers is because they have removed some obstruction and became purer in body, speech and mind.
One cannot see the true path without clearing delusions.
The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, and, dependent origination. Taints and stains fall away naturally through the total approach to Dharma, this is both action according to the Eightfold Path and Right Concentration, which is contemplation through satipatthana, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. In contemplation, you are not instructed to remove taints and obstructions. You are taught to notice your own experience through body, feelings, mind, and mental objects. When you engage the whole process, you line up the proper conditions whereby taints and obstructions don't survive. The wisdom aspect of mindfulness puts to rest problems that seemed to be obstructions at first glance. There is no doer or controller in this respect. The process, both moral and contemplative, work in unison to help one see things the way they are, not how you think they should be seen. There is a big difference.

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KeithA
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by KeithA » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:03 am

Tao wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:59 pm
Not sure if this is the right place for this request but here I go.

I'm looking for references about enlightenment success rate references in any kind of buddhist doctrine or collective.

For example I recall reading in some book by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal (I think it was "Clarifying the natural state") that two thirds of the monks with some master reached the one-taste Mahamudra yoga but none of them was into non-meditation yoga.

I'm sorry for not being more specific in my example I can't recall more details...

Are there other references like this? (Mahayana or Vajrayana)

Thank you a lot. :namaste:
There are, strictly speaking, no enlightened people, there is only enlightened activity.
Shunryu Suzuki
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

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LastLegend
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by LastLegend » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:36 am

A Vietnamese Zen Master Thich Thanh Tu said, "Take the sword and march straight into the house."
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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Dan74
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Dan74 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:52 am

Anonymous X wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:34 am
GoingHome wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:51 pm
AND, especially in the Pali Sutta, the Buddha continuously refers to "taints" and "stains" that need to be removed.
This statement is quite true. The fact is to become Buddha, one must remove all taints and obstructions. That is how Buddha was able to see the universe, karma, rebirth etc so clearly. The reason why some humans, heavenly beings, Arahat and above have supernatural powers is because they have removed some obstruction and became purer in body, speech and mind.
One cannot see the true path without clearing delusions.
The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, and, dependent origination. Taints and stains fall away naturally through the total approach to Dharma, this is both action according to the Eightfold Path and Right Concentration, which is contemplation through satipatthana, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. In contemplation, you are not instructed to remove taints and obstructions. You are taught to notice your own experience through body, feelings, mind, and mental objects. When you engage the whole process, you line up the proper conditions whereby taints and obstructions don't survive. The wisdom aspect of mindfulness puts to rest problems that seemed to be obstructions at first glance. There is no doer or controller in this respect. The process, both moral and contemplative, work in unison to help one see things the way they are, not how you think they should be seen. There is a big difference.
That may well be, but it is not the only way. There's a lot of evidence for the practice of mindful attention to guard the sense doors in Theravada. Not only rather marginal figures like Sujin who mainstream meditation methods as self-based but also mainstream scholars such as Analayo, confirm that this to is an aspect of mindfulness that the Buddha taught, ie mindfulness as guarding against unwholesome mentation.

Sure Zen folk may well say that it is trying to polish a rock into a mirror but rubbing it with a cloth. And indeed on its own, I don't see how such an approach could succeed. But in tandem with other aspects of practice, it can surely be useful.

_/|\_

Anonymous X
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:30 am

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:52 am
Anonymous X wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:34 am
GoingHome wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:51 pm


This statement is quite true. The fact is to become Buddha, one must remove all taints and obstructions. That is how Buddha was able to see the universe, karma, rebirth etc so clearly. The reason why some humans, heavenly beings, Arahat and above have supernatural powers is because they have removed some obstruction and became purer in body, speech and mind.
One cannot see the true path without clearing delusions.
The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, and, dependent origination. Taints and stains fall away naturally through the total approach to Dharma, this is both action according to the Eightfold Path and Right Concentration, which is contemplation through satipatthana, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. In contemplation, you are not instructed to remove taints and obstructions. You are taught to notice your own experience through body, feelings, mind, and mental objects. When you engage the whole process, you line up the proper conditions whereby taints and obstructions don't survive. The wisdom aspect of mindfulness puts to rest problems that seemed to be obstructions at first glance. There is no doer or controller in this respect. The process, both moral and contemplative, work in unison to help one see things the way they are, not how you think they should be seen. There is a big difference.
That may well be, but it is not the only way. There's a lot of evidence for the practice of mindful attention to guard the sense doors in Theravada. Not only rather marginal figures like Sujin who mainstream meditation methods as self-based but also mainstream scholars such as Analayo, confirm that this to is an aspect of mindfulness that the Buddha taught, ie mindfulness as guarding against unwholesome mentation.

Sure Zen folk may well say that it is trying to polish a rock into a mirror but rubbing it with a cloth. And indeed on its own, I don't see how such an approach could succeed. But in tandem with other aspects of practice, it can surely be useful.

_/|\_
I don't doubt that there are other approaches. I do doubt the efficacy of many others. As far as Zen/Chan goes, Zongmi explains best where every gradual approach fails if it is non-inclusiveness of other conditions necessary for path and fruition. He was indeed a Chan genius.

What is most noticeable to me is a lack of basic Buddhist teachings by many who practice various forms of Mahayana Buddhism who somehow ignore or are not aware of what the Pali Canon actually teaches and the associated practices which form the basis of most other meditative approaches in Mahayana. I would think the Buddha's earliest teachings would be studied by any Buddhist who was a serious student.

Mindfulness is much more than a kind of guardian at the doors of the senses. It is one of the factors of enlightenment that must be present for release. This is discussed much amongst the Theravada scholars and meditation masters. No factor can be separated successfully from the others as it would prevent the necessary conditions for wisdom. This is important to understand. It's a total system, not a meditation practice separate from one's life.

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bokki
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by bokki » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:58 pm

Enlightenment success rate?
LOL! that is a first one, lol
4 u? = 0%
!
add it up
statistically
u may oh oh oh
get 2
1%
LOLOL
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burst into flames.
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GoingHome
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Re: Enlightenment success rate

Post by GoingHome » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:52 am

Anonymous X wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:30 am
Dan74 wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:52 am
Anonymous X wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:34 am


The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, and, dependent origination. Taints and stains fall away naturally through the total approach to Dharma, this is both action according to the Eightfold Path and Right Concentration, which is contemplation through satipatthana, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. In contemplation, you are not instructed to remove taints and obstructions. You are taught to notice your own experience through body, feelings, mind, and mental objects. When you engage the whole process, you line up the proper conditions whereby taints and obstructions don't survive. The wisdom aspect of mindfulness puts to rest problems that seemed to be obstructions at first glance. There is no doer or controller in this respect. The process, both moral and contemplative, work in unison to help one see things the way they are, not how you think they should be seen. There is a big difference.
That may well be, but it is not the only way. There's a lot of evidence for the practice of mindful attention to guard the sense doors in Theravada. Not only rather marginal figures like Sujin who mainstream meditation methods as self-based but also mainstream scholars such as Analayo, confirm that this to is an aspect of mindfulness that the Buddha taught, ie mindfulness as guarding against unwholesome mentation.

Sure Zen folk may well say that it is trying to polish a rock into a mirror but rubbing it with a cloth. And indeed on its own, I don't see how such an approach could succeed. But in tandem with other aspects of practice, it can surely be useful.

_/|\_
I don't doubt that there are other approaches. I do doubt the efficacy of many others. As far as Zen/Chan goes, Zongmi explains best where every gradual approach fails if it is non-inclusiveness of other conditions necessary for path and fruition. He was indeed a Chan genius.

What is most noticeable to me is a lack of basic Buddhist teachings by many who practice various forms of Mahayana Buddhism who somehow ignore or are not aware of what the Pali Canon actually teaches and the associated practices which form the basis of most other meditative approaches in Mahayana. I would think the Buddha's earliest teachings would be studied by any Buddhist who was a serious student.

Mindfulness is much more than a kind of guardian at the doors of the senses. It is one of the factors of enlightenment that must be present for release. This is discussed much amongst the Theravada scholars and meditation masters. No factor can be separated successfully from the others as it would prevent the necessary conditions for wisdom. This is important to understand. It's a total system, not a meditation practice separate from one's life.
Some teaching are for sharp minded people, some for simple minded. Pureland teaching is for all type of people. There are stories of simple minded folks with no education, can't read and doesn't even know Dharma and yet obtain rebirth to Pureland just by being mindfulness and recitation of Amida Buddha. Those people are usually kind hearted, filial etc. Being mindfulness and recitation is a kind of meditation and mantra. Don't think Mahayana practitioner ignore the fundamental teachings such as the 4 Noble Truth and 8 Foldpath, they are the foundation of all Buddhist branches. Also important is follow the 5 precepts and 10 good actions.

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