Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

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Dharma Flower
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Dharma Flower » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:59 pm

Has anyone read Mahayana: The Doctrinal Foundations? Great book.

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Wayfarer » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:35 am

there had been a post here from @ancientbuddhism with a number of links to readings on the question which appears to have been deleted. If it could be restored, it would be appreciated. (I was working through them.)
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Mkoll » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:48 am

Wayfarer wrote:there had been a post here from @ancientbuddhism with a number of links to readings on the question which appears to have been deleted. If it could be restored, it would be appreciated. (I was working through them.)

Yes, I saw that post as well. I wonder why it was deleted and by whom...
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:54 am

May as well have an informed discussion.

On the dating of EBTs:

A Philological Approach to Buddhism, The Bukkyō Dendō Kyōkai Lectures 1994 – K.R. Norman

Pāli Philology and the Study of Buddhism – K.R. Norman

Pāli Literature: Including the Canonical Literature in Prakrit and Sanskrit of All the Hīnayāna Schools of Buddhism – K.R. Norman; Jan Gonda (Editors) History of Indian Literature. Vol. VII. Facs. 2

Pali Oral Literature – L.S. Cousins

On the origins of Mahāyāna:

Searching For the Origins of the Mahāyāna: What are we looking for? – Paul Harrison

The Oldest Mahāyāna Sūtra: Its significance for the study of Buddhist development – Lewis R. Lancaster

Sākiyabhikkhu/Sakayabhikkhu/Śākyabhikṣu: A Mistaken link to Mahāyāna? – L. S. Cousins

Mahāyāna Buddhism – The doctrinal foundations – Paul Williams (Second Edition) 1989 – 2009

All of these materials can be found at "Resources" at the link in my signature.

Mod note: Removed reference to harsh anti-Mahayana polemic
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Niviṭṭhaṃ nāmarūpasmiṃ, idaṃ saccanti maññati.

“See this world with its gods, considering self in what is not-self.
Immersed in this mind and body, they imagine this as real.
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Wayfarer » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:05 am

Many thanks! Very interesting.

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby shaunc » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:27 am

Grigoris wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:And I thought it would be useful to let someone like Dharma Flower know that there are in fact people out there, in very large numbers, that have his kind of confidence in the Mahayana tradition and that he's not the only one that thinks this way.
I have complete confidence in the Mahayana, doesn't mean I have to engage in sectarianism though. ;)

Personally my confidence is such that I could not give a flying fornication whether Mahayana came first, last, is the words of the Buddha himself, is made up but inspired by the Buddha, etc... Actually, I personally believe that sectarianism betrays a LACK of confidence which requires compensation via (false) feelings of superiority. I believe that sectarianism is a form of need-based ego-centered identification, which is exactly what the Mahayana should NOT be used for.


I don't agree with Greg very often but this is a great posting. Buddhists in western countries are already in a minority without this BS. It may interest people here to know that in Canberra the capital of Australia there are 2 temples in the same street, 1 is Thai (theravada) and the other is vietnamese (Mahayana) the sangha of both communities support each other on different celebratory days and fetes etc. If they can do this I really Can't see why anyone here should be supporting sectarianism.

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Grigoris » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:16 am

In closing: Comparing Mahayana to Theravada is also misleading. Theravada is a school, the Mahayana is a collection of widely varying schools and traditions.

People are presenting the Mahayana as if it is some sort of unitary monolith, when, in fact, there is just as much (if not more) disagreement between Mahayana schools and traditions as there is agreement.

Shiiiiiiit... in many cases there is just as much disagreement within schools and traditions, as there is between them.
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby ancientbuddhism » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:15 am

Mod note wrote:Removed reference to harsh anti-Mahayana polemic


What, exactly, was in question?
‘‘Anattani attamāniṃ, passa lokaṃ sadevakaṃ;
Niviṭṭhaṃ nāmarūpasmiṃ, idaṃ saccanti maññati.

“See this world with its gods, considering self in what is not-self.
Immersed in this mind and body, they imagine this as real.
- Sn. 3.12

Secure your own mask before assisting others.

– NORTHWEST AIRLINES
Pre-Flight Instruction

A Handful of Leaves

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Admin_PC » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:19 am

ancientbuddhism wrote:
Mod note wrote:Removed reference to harsh anti-Mahayana polemic

What, exactly, was in question?
Gombrich is staunchly anti-Mahayana. He's even been chided by Rupert Gethin for it. Posting his work on DharmaWheel as authoritative is inappropriate.
Gethin on Gombrich wrote:Viewing the Abhidhamma literature and the Mahāyāna sūtras as not having been taught by the Buddha is, of course, nothing new, and Gombrich’s manner of doing so sometimes betrays a failure to properly consider the nature of later developments in Buddhist thought.
(Not the only related quote in that article, just the easiest one to point to.)
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby ancientbuddhism » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:34 am

Good Earth! That you cannot discuss points of dispute, on your own, but rather censor and later cite anther's remark. You are definitely in your own echo chamber.
‘‘Anattani attamāniṃ, passa lokaṃ sadevakaṃ;
Niviṭṭhaṃ nāmarūpasmiṃ, idaṃ saccanti maññati.

“See this world with its gods, considering self in what is not-self.
Immersed in this mind and body, they imagine this as real.
- Sn. 3.12

Secure your own mask before assisting others.

– NORTHWEST AIRLINES
Pre-Flight Instruction

A Handful of Leaves

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Admin_PC » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:08 am

ancientbuddhism wrote:Good Earth! That you cannot discuss points of dispute, on your own, but rather censor and later cite anther's remark. You are definitely in your own echo chamber.

We've already had these discussions, you should probably use the search engine before continuing to push your views.
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby DGA » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:24 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:Good Earth! That you cannot discuss points of dispute, on your own, but rather censor and later cite anther's remark. You are definitely in your own echo chamber.


AdminPC made a reasonable, evidence-based rebuttal to your point. He did not censor you. You are not being silenced. Rather, your incompetence is being pointed out to you. Do you think whining about it like this is going to convince anyone otherwise?

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:31 pm

Grigoris wrote:In closing: Comparing Mahayana to Theravada is also misleading. Theravada is a school, the Mahayana is a collection of widely varying schools and traditions.

People are presenting the Mahayana as if it is some sort of unitary monolith, when, in fact, there is just as much (if not more) disagreement between Mahayana schools and traditions as there is agreement.
.


Mahāyāna is a school, in just the same way Theravada is a school. Why? Theravada is also not monolithic, and has many subtraditions, scholastic disputes, and so on.

Mahāyāna is a school because all Mahāyānists follow the same path. Theravada is a school because all Theravadins follow the same path.
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Grigoris » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:Mahāyāna is a school, in just the same way Theravada is a school. Why? Theravada is also not monolithic, and has many subtraditions, scholastic disputes, and so on.
ie Neither of them are a school.
Mahāyāna is a school because all Mahāyānists follow the same path.
If you had said: "...because all mahayanis ULTIMATELY aspire to the same end." then I may have agreed with you, but I think it is pretty obvious that not all Mahayana schools follow the same path.
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:16 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Mahāyāna is a school, in just the same way Theravada is a school. Why? Theravada is also not monolithic, and has many subtraditions, scholastic disputes, and so on.
ie Neither of them are a school.
Mahāyāna is a school because all Mahāyānists follow the same path.
If you had said: "...because all mahayanis ULTIMATELY aspire to the same end." then I may have agreed with you, but I think it is pretty obvious that not all Mahayana schools follow the same path.


All Mahāyānis follow the same path. The Mahāyāna path begins with bodhicitta, the practice of the six or ten perfections is in the middle, and it concludes with perfect buddhahood.

There are merely differences concerning view. But not conduct, not the path, and not the result.
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Grigoris » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:All Mahāyānis follow the same path. The Mahāyāna path begins with bodhicitta, the practice of the six or ten perfections is in the middle, and it concludes with perfect buddhahood.

There are merely differences concerning view. But not conduct, not the path, and not the result.
I think you may have missed the wide divergence of paths which starts to take place after the practice of the Paramita and their convergence back again at perfect Budhhahood.
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:55 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:All Mahāyānis follow the same path. The Mahāyāna path begins with bodhicitta, the practice of the six or ten perfections is in the middle, and it concludes with perfect buddhahood.

There are merely differences concerning view. But not conduct, not the path, and not the result.
I think you may have missed the wide divergence of paths which starts to take place after the practice of the Paramita and their convergence back again at perfect Budhhahood.


Mere details.
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Grigoris » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:Mere details.
Details for you, the basis for sectarian wrangling for others! ;)
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Admin_PC » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:34 pm

Mod Note: Removed some MetaDiscussion.
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:40 pm

Without having a dog in the race (other than trying to adhere to the sites purpose), this thread has for the most part gone nowhere and I don't see it improving, so I'm locking full stop, with no commentary on who is right or wrong whatsoever.

If someone can legitimately make an argument as to how this thread is contributing to meaningful discussion on Mahayana, Vajrayana, and related topics, feel free to PM me and make your case.
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