Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Mkoll
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Mkoll » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:25 am

Dharma Flower wrote:The only difference between the Buddha, according to Theravada, and those who attain enlightenment after him, is that he did so without the help of a teacher.

Not so. The Buddha had powers that set him apart from even his most accomplished disciples. See MN 12.

Dharma Flower wrote:Disciples who attain enlightenment are referred to as Savaka Buddhas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C4%81vakabuddha

Disciples who attain enlightenment following the Buddha's teachings are called arahants in the Pali Canon. "Savakabuddha" is a term only found in the commentaries on the Pali Canon, according to your link.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Dharma Flower » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:42 am

Mkoll wrote:
Dharma Flower wrote:The only difference between the Buddha, according to Theravada, and those who attain enlightenment after him, is that he did so without the help of a teacher.

Not so. The Buddha had powers that set him apart from even his most accomplished disciples. See MN 12.


Sure, I was only speaking in a general sense.

Mkoll wrote:
Dharma Flower wrote: "Savakabuddha" is a term only found in the commentaries on the Pali Canon, according to your link.


Here is a more in depth discussion of the matter, from the Ven. Walpola Rahula:

These three states of the Sravaka, the Pratyekabuddha and the Buddha are mentioned in the Nidhikanda Sutta of the Khuddakapatha, the first book of the Khuddaka-nikaya, one of the five Collections of the Theravada Tripitaka. It says that by practising virtues such as charity, morality, self-restraint, etc., one may attain, among other things, “the Perfection of the Disciple” (Savaka-Parami), “Enlightenment of the Pratyekabuddha” (Paccekabodhi) and “the Buddha-domain” (Buddhabhumi). They are not called Yanas (vehicles).

In the Theravada tradition these are known as Bodhis, but not Yanas. The Upasaka-janalankara, a Pali treatise dealing with the ethics for the lay Buddhist written in the 12th century by a Thera called Ananda in the Theravada tradition of the Mahavihara at Anuradhpura, Sri Lanka, says that there are three Bodhis: Savakabodhi (Skt: Sravakabodhi), Paccekabodhi (Skt: Fratyekabodhi) and Sammasambodhi (Skt: Samyaksambodhi). A whole chapter of this book is devoted to the discussion of these three Bodhis in great detail. It says further that when a disciple attains the Bodhi (Enlightenment), he is called Savaka-Buddha (Skt: Sravaka-Buddha).
http://info-buddhism.com/Bodhisattva_Id ... ahula.html


If you'd like, I might be able to dig further and find something by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the matter as well.

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby tomamundsen » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:20 am

Dharma Flower wrote:If we look at the matter historically, Mahayana is the legitimate heir to pre-sectarian Buddhism, and Theravada is a schismatic group

Yea, that is obvious to many of us. :anjali:

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Mkoll
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Mkoll » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:24 am

Dharma Flower wrote:If you'd like, I might be able to dig further and find something by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the matter as well.

Thank you for offering, but that's not necessary. My point is that the term is commentarial, not canonical in the sense of being found in the Pali Canon.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Grigoris » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:39 am

Dharma Flower wrote:If we look at the matter historically, Mahayana is the legitimate heir to pre-sectarian Buddhism, and Theravada is a schismatic GROUP...
If we look at things as they stand, sectarian ranting is boring and pointless and serves no purpose other than to fortify some egos.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Kim O'Hara » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:32 am

tomamundsen wrote:
Dharma Flower wrote:If we look at the matter historically, Mahayana is the legitimate heir to pre-sectarian Buddhism, and Theravada is a schismatic group

Yea, that is obvious to many of us. :anjali:

Indeed. And the converse is obvious to many of us, too.
Also that neither is the same as pre-sectarian Buddhism, and that neither is truly different from it.
:rolleye:

Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument
About it and about: but evermore
Came out by the same Door as in I went.

With them the Seed of Wisdom did I sow,
And with my own hand labour'd it to grow:
And this was all the Harvest that I reap'd -
"I came like Water, and like Wind I go."


:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby tomamundsen » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:31 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
Dharma Flower wrote:If we look at the matter historically, Mahayana is the legitimate heir to pre-sectarian Buddhism, and Theravada is a schismatic group

Yea, that is obvious to many of us. :anjali:

Indeed. And the converse is obvious to many of us, too.


Interesting. So, if you truly do think that way, then why exactly are you on this forum for Mahayana and Vajrayana? To instill doubt in the minds of fledgling practitioners of the Great Vehicle?

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Lucas Oliveira » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:47 pm

tomamundsen wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:Yea, that is obvious to many of us. :anjali:

Indeed. And the converse is obvious to many of us, too.


Interesting. So, if you truly do think that way, then why exactly are you on this forum for Mahayana and Vajrayana? To instill doubt in the minds of fledgling practitioners of the Great Vehicle?


Perhaps it is because before being a Mahaya or Vajrayana Buddhist forum, it is a Buddhist forum.

Proof of this is that here also the most important teaching is the 4 noble truths.

And if the vehicle is big or small, we know that there is no vehicle.

:namaste:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. https://translate.google.com.br/

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Grigoris » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:11 pm

tomamundsen wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:Yea, that is obvious to many of us. :anjali:

Indeed. And the converse is obvious to many of us, too.


Interesting. So, if you truly do think that way, then why exactly are you on this forum for Mahayana and Vajrayana? To instill doubt in the minds of fledgling practitioners of the Great Vehicle?
Read the rest of the post...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Lucas Oliveira » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:19 pm

For 2,500 years, Buddhist communities have preserved the wisdom of the Buddha in thousands of texts, passing them down in Pali, Chinese, Tibetan, and other languages.

What would it be like if we were to bring these together and present them using the best technologies and design that the modern web can offer?

What if we removed the boundaries of language and tradition, and let the Buddha speak for himself?

This is SuttaCentral.

https://suttacentral.net/


:anjali:
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Bakmoon » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:04 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:At that time, the Mahāsāṃghikas were the doctrinally conservative majority, while the Sthaviras were the innovating minority, leading to Buddhism's first major schism. The rest is history, as the Mahāsāṃghikas came to later be known as the Mahayana, and the Sthaviras came to be known as the Theravada.

And if that's not going back far enough, we can see in the Lotus Sutra how many of Shakyamuni's own disciples walked out on him when it came time to share the Bodhisattva teachings. This incident of masses of disciples walking out on Shakyamuni is paralleled in a story of the Pali scriptures, though I don't remember where to find it.

That's just not true. The Mahāsāṃghika school wasn't Mahayana in any recognizable sense, and the Sthaviras of that time are the ancestor to several schools of which the Theravada school is only one. History is just a lot more complicated then that.

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby cj39 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:23 pm

There is a lot I don't know so take my two cents with a grain of salt but my understanding is that both the Theravada and the Mahayana began as protest movements within the Mahasanghika. The Theravada pretty much went their own way but as the Mahayana traditions developed, the Mahasanghika gave up the proverbial ghost and the Mahayana took over in their place. My views are based on my reading of the works of Paul Williams and Gregory Schopen among others. It remains unclear to me if the term Mahayana may have already been coined in key religious texts or not, since any new religious reform movement is going to cast themselves as the original form of said religion.

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Sentient Light » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:29 pm

Bakmoon wrote:That's just not true. The Mahāsāṃghika school wasn't Mahayana in any recognizable sense, and the Sthaviras of that time are the ancestor to several schools of which the Theravada school is only one. History is just a lot more complicated then that.


Indeed. The Sthaviras are, in fact, the ancestors to all extant traditions, including modern-day Mahayana (the Dharmaguptaka lineage) and Vajrayana (the Mulasarvastivadin lineage). The relation of any of the early schools and what we understand as Mahayana today is very much unclear, but I think it's likely there were "Mahayanists" across all the early schools to varying degrees.
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Felix » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:43 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:For 2,500 years, Buddhist communities have preserved the wisdom of the Buddha in thousands of texts, passing them down in Pali, Chinese, Tibetan, and other languages.

What would it be like if we were to bring these together and present them using the best technologies and design that the modern web can offer?

What if we removed the boundaries of language and tradition, and let the Buddha speak for himself?

This is SuttaCentral.

https://suttacentral.net/


:anjali:


The idea that there is an original non sectarian Buddhism that we can access is a myth that has been thoroughly debunked.
Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism evolved because they meet certain needs.
The site you mention is in fact a thorough-going Theravadin site.. :smile:

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Felix » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:17 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:Indeed. And the converse is obvious to many of us, too.


Interesting. So, if you truly do think that way, then why exactly are you on this forum for Mahayana and Vajrayana? To instill doubt in the minds of fledgling practitioners of the Great Vehicle?


Perhaps it is because before being a Mahaya or Vajrayana Buddhist forum, it is a Buddhist forum.

Proof of this is that here also the most important teaching is the 4 noble truths.

And if the vehicle is big or small, we know that there is no vehicle.

:namaste:

You may choose to believe that. But the forum declares itself to be " a discussion forum on Mahayana And Vajrayana Buddhism" that's why I joined. If I want to discuss Theravada I would join " Dhamma Wheel" ...( I don't, so I won't ). :smile:
Incidentally there are whole schools of the Vajrayana where you will hear no discussion of the 4 NTs.
They are not denied, they simply don't figure.

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Lucas Oliveira » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:39 pm

Felix wrote:
Lucas Oliveira wrote:For 2,500 years, Buddhist communities have preserved the wisdom of the Buddha in thousands of texts, passing them down in Pali, Chinese, Tibetan, and other languages.

What would it be like if we were to bring these together and present them using the best technologies and design that the modern web can offer?

What if we removed the boundaries of language and tradition, and let the Buddha speak for himself?

This is SuttaCentral.

https://suttacentral.net/


:anjali:


The idea that there is an original non sectarian Buddhism that we can access is a myth that has been thoroughly debunked.
Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism evolved because they meet certain needs.
The site you mention is in fact a thorough-going Theravadin site.. :smile:


I know.
That's what you have for today.
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. https://translate.google.com.br/

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Lucas Oliveira » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:41 pm

Felix wrote:
Lucas Oliveira wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
Interesting. So, if you truly do think that way, then why exactly are you on this forum for Mahayana and Vajrayana? To instill doubt in the minds of fledgling practitioners of the Great Vehicle?


Perhaps it is because before being a Mahaya or Vajrayana Buddhist forum, it is a Buddhist forum.

Proof of this is that here also the most important teaching is the 4 noble truths.

And if the vehicle is big or small, we know that there is no vehicle.

:namaste:

You may choose to believe that. But the forum declares itself to be " a discussion forum on Mahayana And Vajrayana Buddhism" that's why I joined. If I want to discuss Theravada I would join " Dhamma Wheel" ...( I don't, so I won't ). :smile:
Incidentally there are whole schools of the Vajrayana where you will hear no discussion of the 4 NTs.
They are not denied, they simply don't figure.


This is also another good reason to be here. learn.

:anjali:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. https://translate.google.com.br/

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

Felix
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Felix » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:49 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Felix wrote:
Lucas Oliveira wrote:For 2,500 years, Buddhist communities have preserved the wisdom of the Buddha in thousands of texts, passing them down in Pali, Chinese, Tibetan, and other languages.

What would it be like if we were to bring these together and present them using the best technologies and design that the modern web can offer?

What if we removed the boundaries of language and tradition, and let the Buddha speak for himself?

This is SuttaCentral.

https://suttacentral.net/


:anjali:


The idea that there is an original non sectarian Buddhism that we can access is a myth that has been thoroughly debunked.
Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism evolved because they meet certain needs.
The site you mention is in fact a thorough-going Theravadin site.. :smile:


I know.
That's what you have for today.

I don't understand your reply.
You imply that if we remove sectarian concerns the Buddha speaks for himself..which is a very Protestant idea.
You then support your position by posting a link to a site that is firmly grounded in the Theravada, as though that is proof of a non sectarian position, which is absolutely not the case. Quite the reverse.

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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Coëmgenu » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:06 pm

Felix wrote:
Lucas Oliveira wrote:
Felix wrote:
The idea that there is an original non sectarian Buddhism that we can access is a myth that has been thoroughly debunked.
Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism evolved because they meet certain needs.
The site you mention is in fact a thorough-going Theravadin site.. :smile:


I know.
That's what you have for today.

I don't understand your reply.
You imply that if we remove sectarian concerns the Buddha speaks for himself..which is a very Protestant idea.
You then support your position by posting a link to a site that is firmly grounded in the Theravada, as though that is proof of a non sectarian position, which is absolutely not the case. Quite the reverse.
In my experience SuttaCentral is a decent place to go to for nikáya (obviously) and also ágama translations. You just need to check the original Chinese for censored concepts (tathátá, dharmadhátu, etc).
"My pure land is not destroyed,
yet the multitude sees it as consumed in fire,
with anxiety, fear, and other sufferings
filling it everywhere."
(Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra XVI)

All these dharmāḥ are the status of dharma, the standing of dharma, the suchness of dharma; the dharma neither departs from things-as-they-are, nor differs from things-as-they-are; it is the truth, reality, without distortion.(SA 296, 因緣法)
揭諦揭諦,波羅揭諦,波羅僧揭諦,菩提薩婆訶(Prajñāpāramitāhṛdayasya Mantra)

Felix
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Re: Did Mahayana influence Theravada Buddhism?

Postby Felix » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:11 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Felix wrote:
Lucas Oliveira wrote:
I know.
That's what you have for today.

I don't understand your reply.
You imply that if we remove sectarian concerns the Buddha speaks for himself..which is a very Protestant idea.
You then support your position by posting a link to a site that is firmly grounded in the Theravada, as though that is proof of a non sectarian position, which is absolutely not the case. Quite the reverse.
In my experience SuttaCentral is a decent place to go to for nikáya (obviously) and also ágama translations. You just need to check the original Chinese for censored concepts (tathátá, dharmadhátu, etc).

Sutra central may well be all the things you say.
That doesn't alter the fact that much of the Vajrayana has little to do directly with the Suttas.
That in itself does not prove the influence of the Mahayana on the Theravada, but it certainly calls into question the oft repeated canard that the Mahayana/Vajrayana has somehow drifted from the Theravada. They could be said to be two very different religions.
Last edited by Felix on Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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