Retroactivity of Awakening

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1449
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:Which Buddha? Śākyamuni?
All of them. The specific literature being dealt with specifically deals with Śākyamuni, but it doesn't not label him necessarily as a special Buddha who is significantly different that any other Buddha in regards to his Awakening/Lifespan/etc. I don't think, at least.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27227
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:23 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Which Buddha? Śākyamuni?
All of them. The specific literature being dealt with specifically deals with Śākyamuni, but it doesn't not label him necessarily as a special Buddha who is significantly different that any other Buddha in regards to his Awakening/Lifespan/etc. I don't think, at least.
This idea then flies in the face of dependent origination. It means that aspirations for buddhahood, etc., are all meaningless.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1449
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Which Buddha? Śākyamuni?
All of them. The specific literature being dealt with specifically deals with Śākyamuni, but it doesn't not label him necessarily as a special Buddha who is significantly different that any other Buddha in regards to his Awakening/Lifespan/etc. I don't think, at least.
This idea then flies in the face of dependent origination. It means that aspirations for buddhahood, etc., are all meaningless.
I'm probably just doing a poor job of explaining myself, because that I am saying it partially based on various posts others (including you) have made here in the past.

Basically, there are two (or more) notions: Buddhahood is without time, from the perspective of Buddhahood, there has never been delusion, because Awakening is retroactive:
Malcolm wrote:As for obscurations, they are not real, substantial things that need to removed, like a stain from clothes. As the famous Haribhadra points out, when one achieves buddhahood, one understands one was never deluded all along. As Maitreyanath states, "Nothing here to add, nothing here to remove."
Or, Awakening is non-retroactive, and there is no valid notion that the story of the Buddha Awakening at Bōdh Gayā is in any way not the first moment that Awakening attained, which is basically the Theravāda view. The historical Buddha was the Buddha. There is no Buddha beyond the material body and mind of the historical Buddha.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27227
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:42 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Basically, there are two (or more) notions: Buddhahood is without time, from the perspective of Buddhahood, there has never been delusion, because Awakening is retroactive:
Malcolm wrote:As for obscurations, they are not real, substantial things that need to removed, like a stain from clothes. As the famous Haribhadra points out, when one achieves buddhahood, one understands one was never deluded all along. As Maitreyanath states, "Nothing here to add, nothing here to remove."
I think what is confusing is your use of the term "retroactive."

Buddhas do not live in time. They do no perceive time. Time is a relative cognition. Buddhas have no relative cognitions. Nevertheless, conventionally, buddhas arise in time, and at one time there was a moment when every buddha was not a buddha, including Buddha Samantabhadra, the so called "adi-buddha." This is why in Dzogchen teachings we talk generically about a time when buddhahood has not been realized and there were no deluded sentient beings.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 2016
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Minobu » Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Basically, there are two (or more) notions: Buddhahood is without time, from the perspective of Buddhahood, there has never been delusion, because Awakening is retroactive:
Malcolm wrote:As for obscurations, they are not real, substantial things that need to removed, like a stain from clothes. As the famous Haribhadra points out, when one achieves buddhahood, one understands one was never deluded all along. As Maitreyanath states, "Nothing here to add, nothing here to remove."
I think what is confusing is your use of the term "retroactive."

Buddhas do not live in time. They do no perceive time. Time is a relative cognition. Buddhas have no relative cognitions. Nevertheless, conventionally, buddhas arise in time, and at one time there was a moment when every buddha was not a buddha, including Buddha Samantabhadra, the so called "adi-buddha." This is why in Dzogchen teachings we talk generically about a time when buddhahood has not been realized and there were no deluded sentient beings.
I'm not asking as a means to be hostile in any way towards Dzogchen.

and as you know my grammar is horridly confusing at times.

I need a simple non political honest answer to this , Loppon.

when you answer a broad spectrum question on something like Buddhas and how they exist for example;
Buddhas do not live in time. They do no perceive time. Time is a relative cognition. Buddhas have no relative cognitions
and then explain with something along these lines;
This is why in Dzogchen teachings we talk generically about a time when
ok the question is then. Sometimes do Dzogchen views differ from other mahayana views conserning how Buddhas exist.

or to ask and explain my querry further , are Dzogchen teachings on things like how Buddhas perceive time and even more importantly exist in time or not exit time vastly different from other mahayana views .

and if so what mahayana views are drastically differing from Dzogchen.

I have another question but fear it might confuse the above, so i will wait for this hopefully to be answered to me , again like i am a total moron and need plain response, loppon

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27227
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:03 pm

Minobu wrote:Sometimes do Dzogchen views differ from other mahayana views conserning how Buddhas exist.


Not really so much. They are a little more elaborate perhaps, but not really different at all. Even though Dzogchen talks about an "adibuddha" for example, it is didactic, not actual.
are Dzogchen teachings on things like how Buddhas perceive time and even more importantly exist in time or not exit time vastly different from other mahayana views .
Not at all.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 5125
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Queequeg » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:03 pm

Malcolm wrote: I think what is confusing is your use of the term "retroactive."
I think that's it.

Look at the parable of the Rich Man and Poor Son in the Expedient Means chapter of the Lotus Sutra.

The son is never not the son. He has forgotten his identity, and the father contrives a path for him to accept his real identity. When his identity is revealed, it doesn't change the fact that he scrubbed toilets. It does, however cast that labor in a novel light.

"All sentient beings without exception have the mark of bodhi-wisdom and do not need to attain it again." - Vimalakirti Sutra
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Saddharmapundarikasutra, Upaya Chapter

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1449
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:04 pm

Minobu wrote:ok the question is then. Sometimes do Dzogchen views differ from other mahayana views conserning how Buddhas exist.

or to ask and explain my querry further , are Dzogchen teachings on things like how Buddhas perceive time and even more importantly exist in time or not exit time vastly different from other mahayana views .

and if so what mahayana views are drastically differing from Dzogchen.

I have another question but fear it might confuse the above, so i will wait for this hopefully to be answered to me , again like i am a total moron and need plain response
This question was not addressed to me, but I feel it might be prudent to point out that the notion that enlightenment is "retroactive" (to use my, perhaps poor, wording), or "outside time", is not a teaching special to Dzogchen. I have encountered it in just "general Mahayana" as well.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 2016
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Minobu » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:32 pm

Malcolm wrote: This is why in Dzogchen teachings we talk generically about a time when buddhahood has not been realized and there were no deluded sentient beings.
ok so i hope you recall back in another Primordial Buddha thread in the Nichiren section.

i talked of this pre samsara purity . i was explaining that before desire crept into the picture there was a pure state where all sentients were pure...

you said no with this quote.....you used a the word edenic which had me go off on diatribes ...please ignore any memory of that and the use of the word.
Malcolm wrote:
Minobu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Because it contradicts dependent origination.
if there is no desire and zero karma >pre Samsara, then there is no interdependent co arising of anything. there is just pure mind without any manifestation of anything.
.
Ignorance is connate, but not innate.

There is no temporal state of primeval purity. There is no edenic state from which we fell.
i was trying to explain that there was a time when all was pure and how in sam's hell did it get to this, what we live in, samsara.


and then this happened , which seems to contradict what you just posted today.
Malcolm wrote:
Minobu wrote:
Samsara is beginningless due to mass .. mass creates time.
No, samsara is beginningless because of dependent origination. It has nothing to do with mass, time, the big bang or physics.

time eventually bends upon itself creating a circle of time which has no beginning and no end. Hence the observation that Samsara has no beginning and no end
This idea of time has nothing to with the subject matter. This idea is from physics.

Samsara has an end, that end is called nirvana.
samsara came into existence
Samsara did not come into existence at all because it is beginningless.
do you see the contradiction from this.
Malcolm wrote: This is why in Dzogchen teachings we talk generically about a time when buddhahood has not been realized and there were no deluded sentient beings.
no deluded sentients would mean no samsara/no world of desire

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 2016
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Minobu » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:01 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Minobu wrote:ok the question is then. Sometimes do Dzogchen views differ from other mahayana views conserning how Buddhas exist.

or to ask and explain my querry further , are Dzogchen teachings on things like how Buddhas perceive time and even more importantly exist in time or not exit time vastly different from other mahayana views .

and if so what mahayana views are drastically differing from Dzogchen.

I have another question but fear it might confuse the above, so i will wait for this hopefully to be answered to me , again like i am a total moron and need plain response
This question was not addressed to me, but I feel it might be prudent to point out that the notion that enlightenment is "retroactive" (to use my, perhaps poor, wording), or "outside time", is not a teaching special to Dzogchen. I have encountered it in just "general Mahayana" as well.
if there was a time when no one was deluded and there would be a time when there were no Buddhas. Fro there would be nothing to save...

somehow desire crept in and slowly do to this karma was created and as that was created so grows samsara..and then there would be a need for a Buddha.

but then
Malcolm wrote:
However, just as there is no beginning of samsara, there was never a time when there were no buddhas guiding sentient beings.
.
Malcolm wrote: and at one time there was a moment when every buddha was not a buddha, including Buddha Samantabhadra, the so called "adi-buddha." This is why in Dzogchen teachings we talk generically about a time when buddhahood has not been realized and there were no deluded sentient beings.
very confusing...

it's like back to the drawing board for me...
unless i return to a time when I firmly believed in a primordial Buddha in a time called Kuon Ganjo , a sort of pre time before there was anything there was a Primordial Buddha..i think it was much more than that...


from:
http://www.sgilibrary.org/search_dict.php?id=1250

kuon-ganjo
[久遠元初] ( Jpn)
Literally kuon means the remote past, and ganjo, beginning or foundation. This term appears in On the Mystic Principle of the True Cause, a work written by Nichiren in 1282. This work refers to "the Mystic Law, uncreated and eternal, of the Buddha of beginningless time (kuonganjo), " and states that the Mystic Law lies in the depths of the "Life Span" (sixteenth) chapter of the Lotus Sutra. Nichiren interprets kuonganjo on two different levels: (1) In the context of the "Life Span" chapter, kuon refers to the remote past when Shakyamuni originally attained enlightenment, and ganjo, to the foundation of his original enlightenment. (2) In The Record of the Orally Transmitted Teachings, Nichiren's oral teachings on the Lotus Sutra compiled by Nikkoin 1278, it is stated: "Kuon means something that was not worked for, that was not improved upon, but that exists just as it always has." Orally Transmitted Teachings continues: "Because we are speaking here of the Buddha eternally endowed with the three bodies, it is not a question of something attained for the first time at a certain time, or of something that was worked for. This is not the kind of Buddhahood that is adorned with the thirty-two features and eighty characteristics or that needs to be improved on in any way. Because this is the eternal and immutable Buddha in his original state, he exists just as he always has. This is what is meant by kuon." The same section of Orally Transmitted Teachings concludes, "Kuon is Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, and 'true attainment' means awakening to the fact that one is eternally endowed with the three bodies." In essence, for Nichiren, kuon, or kuonganjo, means the eternal Law of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo and the original state of life that embodies Buddhahood.

Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:07 pm

Minobu wrote:if there was a time when no one was deluded and there would be a time when there were no Buddhas. Fro there would be nothing to save...
A nonstatic time is not grasped.
Nothing one could grasp as
Stationary time exists.
If time is not grasped, how is it known?

If time depends on an entity,
Then without an entity how could time exist?
There is no existent entity.
So how can time exist?

MMK
What I want is a view. Hannibal Lecter

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 2016
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Minobu » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:13 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Minobu wrote:if there was a time when no one was deluded and there would be a time when there were no Buddhas. Fro there would be nothing to save...
A nonstatic time is not grasped.
Nothing one could grasp as
Stationary time exists.
If time is not grasped, how is it known?

If time depends on an entity,
Then without an entity how could time exist?
There is no existent entity.
So how can time exist?

MMK
what is MMK
and it is a nice post by the way..i will reread it a few times...like all things like this one needs to study it.
ta

Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:15 pm

Minobu wrote:what is MMK
and it is a nice post by the way..i will reread it a few times...like all things like this one needs to study it.
ta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C5%ABla ... 1rik%C4%81
:twothumbsup:
What I want is a view. Hannibal Lecter

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1449
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:20 pm

Minobu wrote:what is MMK
and it is a nice post by the way..i will reread it a few times...like all things like this one needs to study it.
Múlamadhyamakakáriká.

Saying awakening is timeless just means that it cannot be pinned down to a certain time, conventionally. I think.

If a temporally extant Nirvana-state existed at a certain moment in distant time, I don't think that is coherent with samsara existing, because it would force samsara to have to "arise out of Nirvana", which is a troubling notion, and one that I think is ultimately logically incoherent. If samsara "starts" after Nirvana, then Nirvana has to somehow "cause" samsara.

Some people talk about "original enlightenment", but having posed this above train-of-thought to people who talk of "original nirvana", it is evident that they mean something more like "default enlightenment" rather than "temporally original Nirvana".

Incidentally, my usage of the word "retroactive" is couched in conventionality. From a conventional POV, timeless awakening appears "retroactive". But retroactive might not be the best word, as per the discussion above.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

User avatar
Thomas Amundsen
Posts: 1855
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:26 pm

Minobu wrote: very confusing...

it's like back to the drawing board for me...
Well, you probably don't need to square all of the Dzogchen teachings with Nichiren. If you're practicing Nichiren, I think those teachings should be enough :)

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 2016
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Minobu » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:32 pm

tomamundsen wrote:
Minobu wrote: very confusing...

it's like back to the drawing board for me...
Well, you probably don't need to square all of the Dzogchen teachings with Nichiren. If you're practicing Nichiren, I think those teachings should be enough :)
I don't just practice Nichiren Shonin's teachings...i practice Tantra as well. Meditate and love the compassion produced by generating Chenrezig.

User avatar
Thomas Amundsen
Posts: 1855
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:45 pm

Minobu wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
Minobu wrote: very confusing...

it's like back to the drawing board for me...
Well, you probably don't need to square all of the Dzogchen teachings with Nichiren. If you're practicing Nichiren, I think those teachings should be enough :)
I don't just practice Nichiren Shonin's teachings...i practice Tantra as well. Meditate and love the compassion produced by generating Chenrezig.
Ah, gotcha :twothumbsup:

Sorry, :focus:

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 5125
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Queequeg » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:48 pm

Minobu wrote: kuon-ganjo
This is a doctrine associated with Nichiren Shoshu. Its not universally accepted. In most other Nichiren schools, they refer to kuon jitsujo - "Remote Past".

I'm not sure the full implications of the difference. My hot take is that kuon-ganjo is a positivistic statement that embodies how kuon-jitsujo is actually understood. This is leaving aside all the other idiosyncratic doctrines Nichiren Shoshu weaves into the kuon-ganjo teaching.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Saddharmapundarikasutra, Upaya Chapter

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 2016
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by Minobu » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:52 am

Queequeg wrote:
Minobu wrote: kuon-ganjo
This is a doctrine associated with Nichiren Shoshu. Its not universally accepted. In most other Nichiren schools, they refer to kuon jitsujo - "Remote Past".

I'm not sure the full implications of the difference. My hot take is that kuon-ganjo is a positivistic statement that embodies how kuon-jitsujo is actually understood. This is leaving aside all the other idiosyncratic doctrines Nichiren Shoshu weaves into the kuon-ganjo teaching.
Well I just sort of had an epiphany due to all this primordial Buddha discussions, for the past six months here.
you had a lot to do with it.
You showing me how the Lotus Sutra is the Buddha...Then i realized how much the talks about the Buddhas emanations affected me.

Put it together and I see that all the major movements concerning the Lotus Sutra from Lord Buddha Nagarjuna to , Tien Tai The Great, To Dengyo , and finally Nichiren DaiShonin, as something only the Buddha could do. Something so important and the need for it to be so perfectly protected and produced into human history for the benefit of all Earth.

Then this thread and it sparked something. It's really a valid approach to the Primordial Buddha and what It actually is.

No one has actually nailed it down and brought total lucidity to the subject. But why not eh.

The Lotus sutra being the Primordial Buddha , I believe only a few sutras actually address the issue.

But for me , and what I perceive , Nichiren DaiShonin could well be an emanation of the Primordial Buddha.

It like all other things that happen to all of us on this path...is faith based...

User avatar
smcj
Posts: 5582
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Retroactivity of Awakening

Post by smcj » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:21 am

Malcolm wrote:As the famous Haribhadra points out, when one achieves buddhahood, one understands one was never deluded all along.
i.e. it is retroactively seen.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests