if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

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Minobu
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if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by Minobu » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:25 pm

A while back Malcolm revealed that buddhas see only other buddhas.
Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas only see other buddhas. They do not perceive sentient beings at all, just buddhas. In other words, when a buddha looks at any being we would call sentient, all they see is a buddha.
so recently i asked about the concept used by one Lobsang Rampa,"overself"

in the movie Little buddha a search for a reincarnated Rinpoche revealed he had now incarnated into 3 bodies, two boys and a girl.

According to Rampa we all have an overself and some of us have a few bodies guided by this overself.

Malcolm basically has no interest in this overself buisness and actually thought i was joking when asked.


it's back in my head again, but this time......forget the word overself...it's a word used back when no one generally in the west was really into Buddhism..A book published 1956...so maybe it was just being used to describe Sambhogakaya body.


So

if we are all are Buddhas as seen by a Buddha , do we now have the Three Kayas...even if it is unrealized ...some sort of dormancy. maybe wrong word but hopefully you get where i am going here.

So maybe we do have an overself... But the word could be deemed to mean our Sambhogakaya body. I don't know but is it possible if we are Buddhas our Sambhogakaya body could be guiding us.

guiding us....using the Dharma kaya body to aid in Samsara to put things in our path ...thoughts, and such...maybe a new teacher...maybe finding a site online from which to learn from...We are not Nirmana kaya obvioulsy but if Buddhas see only Buddhas what are they seeing in this Samsaric realm.


but it does depend on we already being Buddhas...

and please don't judge the use of Rampa..google him..and one will find charlatan all over the place...but he was instrumental in hundreds of thousands people seeking Buddhism after reading him back in the 50's and 60's and really the 70's when he was most popular. His books contained vast amounts of Buddhist terms and concepts used in Tibet.

words used can be used to describe things to the ignorant but years later sound childish.

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by smcj » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:12 pm

PM
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by Bristollad » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:33 pm

If I remember correctly, when HH Dalai Lama was asked about Lobsang Rampa and whether his books had anything correct in them, HH replied that maybe he was right about butter tea, maybe. :smile:

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by anjali » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:37 pm

Minobu wrote:if we are all are Buddhas as seen by a Buddha , do we now have the Three Kayas...even if it is unrealized ...some sort of dormancy. maybe wrong word but hopefully you get where i am going here.
Yes. I was just reading this quote last night,
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, from As It Is, Vol. 2, p. 119 wrote:Briefly, samsara is the six classes of beings; nirvana is all the buddhas and the buddhafields. One state is suffering; the other is free of suffering. The buddha nature is equally present throughout both of these two states. The pure buddha nature is how the three kayas are present. The vajra body is the unchanging aspect, the vajra speech is the unobstructed aspect, and the vajra mind is the undeluded quality. In the state of suffering, these three vajras are experienced as the three poisons.

In actuality, the victorious ones' three kayas permeate all of samsara and nirvana. They are complete in our buddha nature. The ordinary body, speech and mind of sentient beings are the expressions or reflections of the unchanging body, the unobstructed speech and undeluded mind. They came about as the expression of the victorious ones, just like the light radiating from the sun. Sentient beings are never, for even a single instant, separate from the buddhas.
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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by Minobu » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:39 pm

smcj wrote:
...so recently i asked about the concept used by one Lobsang Rampa...
Lobsang Rampa has zero credibility here. Here is the equivalent of L. Ron Hubbard.
...in the movie Little Buddha...
That was a movie, fiction. So are the novels of Herman Hesse. The Matrix movies are loosely based on buddhist ideas too. Please don't quote them either.
*****
Your question is reasonable and has merit, but basing it in terms of popular culture invalidates the question. It is like discussing Hillary Clinton's child sex ring based out of a pizza parlor--not fake news but "fake Dharma".

So try asking it again in a new thread without the funky cultural references.
I explained my use of him . kowledge is knowledge and l ron hubbard was a science fiction writer. Rampa used Tibetan knowledge and for hundreds of thousands of us...he was the first introduction into tibetan thought and culture and Buddhist tibetan terms.

i am trying to use a word...sorry if that is well below your intellectual grade...it's a flippin word...to describe something...i explained the man is a known charlatan...i wanted to use his word is all...and be honest with where my mind is at and mulling over something....ever since malcolm said this..

Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas only see other buddhas. They do not perceive sentient beings at all, just buddhas. In other words, when a buddha looks at any being we would call sentient, all they see is a buddha.

and as for the movie...it was pretty spot on ....

sheeeeesh get over yourself...no ...hey I am not worthy of your intellect here...

here have a ribbon of intellectual stardom...

i mean really now...i'm trying to ask something and using all the means i have to get an important point across...

and you are going to hang me for using a word Rampa used to describe something i am trying to come to terms with...

it's the meaning beyound the word...

i have not picked up one of his books since 75....but hey hang me...

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by Minobu » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:41 pm

anjali wrote:
Minobu wrote:if we are all are Buddhas as seen by a Buddha , do we now have the Three Kayas...even if it is unrealized ...some sort of dormancy. maybe wrong word but hopefully you get where i am going here.
Yes. I was just reading this quote last night,
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, from As It Is, Vol. 2, p. 119 wrote:Briefly, samsara is the six classes of beings; nirvana is all the buddhas and the buddhafields. One state is suffering; the other is free of suffering. The buddha nature is equally present throughout both of these two states. The pure buddha nature is how the three kayas are present. The vajra body is the unchanging aspect, the vajra speech is the unobstructed aspect, and the vajra mind is the undeluded quality. In the state of suffering, these three vajras are experienced as the three poisons.

In actuality, the victorious ones' three kayas permeate all of samsara and nirvana. They are complete in our buddha nature. The ordinary body, speech and mind of sentient beings are the expressions or reflections of the unchanging body, the unobstructed speech and undeluded mind. They came about as the expression of the victorious ones, just like the light radiating from the sun. Sentient beings are never, for even a single instant, separate from the buddhas.
ok thank you very kindly...

i will need to reread this and think about it before i probably will end up with a question about it...

but it looks spot on and hopefully it straightens out or affords a better understanding in my paradigm.

again thanks for getting my intent here.

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by DGA » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:15 pm

we are not Buddhas. We are sentient beings, which means we have the capacity for Buddhahood, inclusive of the three kayas.

(speaking for myself only, so that's the royal "we")

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by Norwegian » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:35 pm

Minobu,

Don't refer to "Lobsang Rampa" as some sort of legit source. The man was a British plumber by name of Cyril Henry Hoskin. He wrote fiction. It was nonsense, and totally unreliable. The man claimed that one of his books was dictated to him by his cat, Mrs Fifi Greywhiskers... :rolleye:

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by Minobu » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:56 pm

Norwegian wrote:Minobu,

Don't refer to "Lobsang Rampa" as some sort of legit source. The man was a British plumber by name of Cyril Henry Hoskin. He wrote fiction. It was nonsense, and totally unreliable. The man claimed that one of his books was dictated to him by his cat, Mrs Fifi Greywhiskers... :rolleye:
I made the point when i used the word charlatan .
is there some deeper reason for you writing this, or is it just some piece of negative tripe .

There is a point to be made though, that he wrote the book in 1956 and for the next 20 years vast numbers of people heard for the first time the Words
"OM MANI PADME HUM" and chanted them ....just to see.

on second thought....

So all this negativity one has for the man, might actually be negativity against one of the Buddha's expedient devices to teach the Western world...or more aptly introduce certain things to the Western World.


i mean how many things were written and called inspired Sutras well after the Historic Buddha .....They still inspire today but also bring with them questionable authenticity..It just seems the nature of the beast for us.

Isn't all about getting the person on the path and inspiring them to take the first steps...

anyway unto matters about the real intent of the thread...


anjali wrote:
Minobu wrote:if we are all are Buddhas as seen by a Buddha , do we now have the Three Kayas...even if it is unrealized ...some sort of dormancy. maybe wrong word but hopefully you get where i am going here.
Yes. I was just reading this quote last night,
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, from As It Is, Vol. 2, p. 119 wrote:Briefly, samsara is the six classes of beings; nirvana is all the buddhas and the buddhafields. One state is suffering; the other is free of suffering. The buddha nature is equally present throughout both of these two states. The pure buddha nature is how the three kayas are present. The vajra body is the unchanging aspect, the vajra speech is the unobstructed aspect, and the vajra mind is the undeluded quality. In the state of suffering, these three vajras are experienced as the three poisons.

In actuality, the victorious ones' three kayas permeate all of samsara and nirvana. They are complete in our buddha nature. The ordinary body, speech and mind of sentient beings are the expressions or reflections of the unchanging body, the unobstructed speech and undeluded mind. They came about as the expression of the victorious ones, just like the light radiating from the sun. Sentient beings are never, for even a single instant, separate from the buddhas.
In actuality, the victorious ones' three kayas permeate all of samsara and nirvana. They are complete in our buddha nature.
yes but the question is..."do I have a Sambhogakaya body sitting in meditation somewhere?

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by Minobu » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:59 pm

DGA wrote:we are not Buddhas. We are sentient beings, which means we have the capacity for Buddhahood, inclusive of the three kayas.

(speaking for myself only, so that's the royal "we")
this seems to be a different point of view than this statement.
Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas only see other buddhas. They do not perceive sentient beings at all, just buddhas. In other words, when a buddha looks at any being we would call sentient, all they see is a buddha.
to be honest the purpose of the thread is a personal struggle since i first read Loppon's words.
I tend to be of your paradigm fighting to change it into something that understands the Loppon's words

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by DGA » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:01 pm

Minobu wrote:
DGA wrote:we are not Buddhas. We are sentient beings, which means we have the capacity for Buddhahood, inclusive of the three kayas.

(speaking for myself only, so that's the royal "we")
this seems to be a different point of view than this statement.
Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas only see other buddhas. They do not perceive sentient beings at all, just buddhas. In other words, when a buddha looks at any being we would call sentient, all they see is a buddha.
to be honest the purpose of the thread is a personal struggle since i first read Loppon's words.
I tend to be of your paradigm fighting to change it into something that understands the Loppon's words
There's no contradiction.

Malcolm is describing the perception of a Buddha.

We aren't Buddhas (at least I'm not one), so we perceive differently from a Buddha.

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by DGA » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:02 pm

Norwegian wrote:Minobu,

Don't refer to "Lobsang Rampa" as some sort of legit source. The man was a British plumber by name of Cyril Henry Hoskin. He wrote fiction. It was nonsense, and totally unreliable. The man claimed that one of his books was dictated to him by his cat, Mrs Fifi Greywhiskers... :rolleye:
That's funny. I had a grey cat named Fifi. Obviously, she was the tulku of Hoskin's cat. Should have enthroned the furry little fascist...

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by Astus » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:23 pm

Minobu wrote:but is it possible if we are Buddhas our Sambhogakaya body could be guiding us.
guiding us....using the Dharma kaya body to aid in Samsara to put things in our path ...thoughts, and such...maybe a new teacher...maybe finding a site online from which to learn from...We are not Nirmana kaya obvioulsy but if Buddhas see only Buddhas what are they seeing in this Samsaric realm.
Ignorance is what guides beings, that's how they're stuck in samsara. This is what the 12 links of dependent origination show us. There is no outer force or entity that can manipulate a being's karma. Accepting such an external influence nullifies the meaning of karma and the path of liberation.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by DGA » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:26 pm

Astus wrote:
Minobu wrote:but is it possible if we are Buddhas our Sambhogakaya body could be guiding us.
guiding us....using the Dharma kaya body to aid in Samsara to put things in our path ...thoughts, and such...maybe a new teacher...maybe finding a site online from which to learn from...We are not Nirmana kaya obvioulsy but if Buddhas see only Buddhas what are they seeing in this Samsaric realm.
Ignorance is what guides beings, that's how they're stuck in samsara. This is what the 12 links of dependent origination show us. There is no outer force or entity that can manipulate a being's karma. Accepting such an external influence nullifies the meaning of karma and the path of liberation.
I'm reminded of the parable of the herbs in the Lotus Sutra, where Buddha Shakyamuni explains that he is always guiding beings to Buddhahood.

In that sense, the nirmanakaya is never not guiding sentient beings.

Buddhas do not need guiding, though. (to Minobu's point)

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by Minobu » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:28 pm

DGA wrote:
Minobu wrote:
DGA wrote:we are not Buddhas. We are sentient beings, which means we have the capacity for Buddhahood, inclusive of the three kayas.

(speaking for myself only, so that's the royal "we")
this seems to be a different point of view than this statement.
Malcolm wrote:
Buddhas only see other buddhas. They do not perceive sentient beings at all, just buddhas. In other words, when a buddha looks at any being we would call sentient, all they see is a buddha.
to be honest the purpose of the thread is a personal struggle since i first read Loppon's words.
I tend to be of your paradigm fighting to change it into something that understands the Loppon's words
There's no contradiction.

Malcolm is describing the perception of a Buddha.

We aren't Buddhas (at least I'm not one), so we perceive differently from a Buddha.
hmmmm have to think about this.

If you make a statement like...oh wow the Rainbow looks like light show i saw at a concert....i get that...

you are reminded of something you saw and the rainbow looks like it...human thing ...everyone can understand...

but is a Buddha percieves something then it is an edict to Buddhists.

If He sees everyone as Buddhas then it is because they are Buddhas.
Malcolm wrote: all they see is a buddha.
.
it's not about perceiving it is about what they know and see...

look i'm still grappling with the words...

i can appreciate what you said...but what a Buddha perceives ..is the ultimate reality. And If they only see Buddhas then we are Buddhas...


so do i have a Sambhogakaya Body looking out for me?

There's no contradiction.

Malcolm is describing the perception of a Buddha.
But if you dismiss what they see ,down to something like they are all tripping the light fantastic and see stuff differently...we are in trouble...

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by Astus » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:30 pm

DGA wrote:I'm reminded of the parable of the herbs in the Lotus Sutra, where Buddha Shakyamuni explains that he is always guiding beings to Buddhahood.
Supposing that there is such a guidance makes no difference, as it's still up to each person to cultivate the way. In other words, a defiled mind sees only a defiled world.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by Minobu » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:31 pm

Astus wrote:
Minobu wrote:but is it possible if we are Buddhas our Sambhogakaya body could be guiding us.
guiding us....using the Dharma kaya body to aid in Samsara to put things in our path ...thoughts, and such...maybe a new teacher...maybe finding a site online from which to learn from...We are not Nirmana kaya obvioulsy but if Buddhas see only Buddhas what are they seeing in this Samsaric realm.
Ignorance is what guides beings, that's how they're stuck in samsara. This is what the 12 links of dependent origination show us. There is no outer force or entity that can manipulate a being's karma. Accepting such an external influence nullifies the meaning of karma and the path of liberation.
True...

but i'm stuck here...

if we are all Buddhas...can i communicate with my Sambhogokaya Body ?
I mean this Kaya body , if I'm a Buddha is the one to try to get in touch with somehow...It would be part of me.

unless we are not Buddhas and buddhas see sentient beings like all of us are and see..
unlike what malcolm says.

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by Minobu » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Astus wrote:
DGA wrote:I'm reminded of the parable of the herbs in the Lotus Sutra, where Buddha Shakyamuni explains that he is always guiding beings to Buddhahood.
Supposing that there is such a guidance makes no difference, as it's still up to each person to cultivate the way. In other words, a defiled mind sees only a defiled world.
but if we are the Buddha ,Buddha sees us to be.....??????

hence i don;t think we are Buddhas...and what malcolm said here...
Malcolm wrote: Buddhas only see other buddhas. They do not perceive sentient beings at all, just buddhas. In other words, when a buddha looks at any being we would call sentient, all they see is a buddha.
.
it's like they are tripping then...and we are in trouble ...if we listen to these beings....

and I'm not being disrespectfull , if i am sorry it is do to my ignorance....so hang me.

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by DGA » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:35 pm

Minobu wrote:[
There's no contradiction.

Malcolm is describing the perception of a Buddha.
But if you dismiss what they see ,down to something like they are all tripping the light fantastic and see stuff differently...we are in trouble...
who is dismissing what a Buddha sees? I don't understand your objection.
so do i have a Sambhogakaya Body looking out for me?
Of course. All the Buddhas are looking out for you. But as Astus is correct to remind us all...
Astus wrote:
DGA wrote:I'm reminded of the parable of the herbs in the Lotus Sutra, where Buddha Shakyamuni explains that he is always guiding beings to Buddhahood.
Supposing that there is such a guidance makes no difference, as it's still up to each person to cultivate the way. In other words, a defiled mind sees only a defiled world.

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Re: if we are Buddhas are we the 3 Kayas

Post by DGA » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:36 pm

Minobu wrote:[

it's like they are tripping then...and we are in trouble
No, they are not tripping. We are tripping, and that's why we are in trouble.

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