Is Māra a deva?
- Caoimhghín
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Is Māra a deva?
Is Māra considered a deva, generally (traditionally?), lord of the highest of the sense-pleasure heavens?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Re: Is Māra a deva?
That's my understanding, yes - with the caveat that he is also identified with the 5 Skandhas.Coëmgenu wrote:Is Māra considered a deva, generally (traditionally?), lord of the highest of the sense-pleasure heavens?
He appears 2202 times in the Daizokyo Database of the Taisho Tripitaka.
This article might be of interest from a Mahayana perspective:
https://www.academia.edu/5761289/The_Fo ... a_Buddhism
- Caoimhghín
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Re: Is Māra a deva?
Are devāḥ considered, traditionally, to lack the 5 aggregates? Is there such a thing as a being with no aggregates?Admin_PC wrote:That's my understanding, yes - with the caveat that he is also identified with the 5 Skandhas.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Re: Is Māra a deva?
No. Even formless realm devas have two of the four mental aggregates, formations and consciousness.Coëmgenu wrote:Are devāḥ considered, traditionally, to lack the 5 aggregates? Is there such a thing as a being with no aggregates?Admin_PC wrote:That's my understanding, yes - with the caveat that he is also identified with the 5 Skandhas.
Re: Is Māra a deva?
I'm having trouble finding the right words to communicate the idea. Mara gets identified with the general idea of the 5 clinging aggregates upon which a misguided imputation of self leads to suffering (ie Skandhamara), in addition to being identified with the deva.Coëmgenu wrote:Are devāḥ considered, traditionally, to lack the 5 aggregates? Is there such a thing as a being with no aggregates?Admin_PC wrote:That's my understanding, yes - with the caveat that he is also identified with the 5 Skandhas.
- Caoimhghín
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Re: Is Māra a deva?
There is a metaphorical interpretation of "what" Māra is, one that I am very friendly to, but there is also the notion of Māra as an external entity, such a notion exists in various traditional Buddhist literature collections. This is the Māra that I was referring to in the OP.Admin_PC wrote:I'm having trouble finding the right words to communicate the idea. Mara gets identified with the general idea of the 5 clinging aggregates upon which a misguided imputation of self leads to suffering (ie Skandhamara), in addition to being identified with the deva.Coëmgenu wrote:Are devāḥ considered, traditionally, to lack the 5 aggregates? Is there such a thing as a being with no aggregates?Admin_PC wrote:That's my understanding, yes - with the caveat that he is also identified with the 5 Skandhas.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?
Since the dévas are at least partly comparable to the angelic hierarchies of the Abrahamic faiths, could māras, now in the special sense of a class of beings, possibly be considered as “fallen” dévas paralleling the “fallen angels”—dévas who become evil while retaining powers that give them a certain influence within our realm? Any opinions?
“What leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to liberation: that I have not declared.”
Buddha Śākyamuni, Teacher of Gods and Men
{Formerly known as Vidyavajra}
Buddha Śākyamuni, Teacher of Gods and Men
{Formerly known as Vidyavajra}
- Caoimhghín
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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?
I think that in Buddhist cosmology, there is no "ultimate agent" from which to fall, given that "falling" is equivalent, in Christian terms, to entering into non-conformity to the will/nature of what is "Godness". The issue is with God being considered a "being" in Western metaphysics. Eastern metaphysics would never concede to an Anuttarasaṃyaksambuddha being considered a "being", or perhaps even an "agentified being" necessarily.Vidyavajra wrote:Since the dévas are at least partly comparable to the angelic hierarchies of the Abrahamic faiths, could māras, now in the special sense of a class of beings, possibly be considered as “fallen” dévas paralleling the “fallen angels”—dévas who become evil while retaining powers that give them a certain influence within our realm? Any opinions?
In Buddhism, those who "fall" end in hell-realms, with no agency or power, unlike Satan, who has immense power over all earthly things, being the "Prince of the Earth", but, in Buddhism, beings "fall" of their own accord and their own karma into hell-realms, where they are powerless.
In Christianity, devils "fall" on account of their non-conformity to the ways and the laws of Godliness, which could be phrased in Dharmic terms as "nonconformity to the Buddhadharma", but is not necessarily phrased so.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?
In Christianity, too, those who fall end in hell-realms. The possibilities for falling are more relative in Buddhism as one might fall from a state of greater freedom of realization, such as the human state, to a ‘lower’ state such as an animal, and so on and so forth, including endless possibilities for relative falls that do not necessarily end up in a hell-realm. In Christianity, Satan is only in a condition to exercise a relative power (of influencing the will of humans) for a limited period of time, whereupon it is over and only hell remains for him. I think there is space for such a possibility within Buddhist cosmology, actually. Just as there exist short-lived humans who have become evil psychopaths and fallen from human nature, while continuing to occupy a human body and even exercising great power within our human society for a while until they die—why couldn't a comparable thing happen to a powerful and long-lived déva, similar to the case of fallen angels? Surely one would end up in the hell-states sooner or later once having entered that path, but from a human point of view, that might take ages of time for such a being before their conditioned individuation is exhausted.Coëmgenu wrote:I think that in Buddhist cosmology, there is no "ultimate agent" from which to fall, given that "falling" is equivalent, in Christian terms, to entering into non-conformity to the will/nature of what is "Godness". The issue is with God being considered a "being" in Western metaphysics. Eastern metaphysics would never concede to an Anuttarasaṃyaksambuddha being considered a "being", or perhaps even an "agentified being" necessarily.Vidyavajra wrote:Since the dévas are at least partly comparable to the angelic hierarchies of the Abrahamic faiths, could māras, now in the special sense of a class of beings, possibly be considered as “fallen” dévas paralleling the “fallen angels”—dévas who become evil while retaining powers that give them a certain influence within our realm? Any opinions?
In Buddhism, those who "fall" end in hell-realms, with no agency or power, unlike Satan, who has immense power over all earthly things, being the "Prince of the Earth", but, in Buddhism, beings "fall" of their own accord and their own karma into hell-realms, where they are powerless.
In Christianity, devils "fall" on account of their non-conformity to the ways and the laws of Godliness, which could be phrased in Dharmic terms as "nonconformity to the Buddhadharma", but is not necessarily phrased so.
“What leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to liberation: that I have not declared.”
Buddha Śākyamuni, Teacher of Gods and Men
{Formerly known as Vidyavajra}
Buddha Śākyamuni, Teacher of Gods and Men
{Formerly known as Vidyavajra}
Re: Is Māra a deva?
Okay "Devaputra-māra" (Son of the Deva Māra) is the 1 of the multiple forms of māra that you are referring to.
Unfortunately in Chinese texts it's not always clear which of them the text talking about, even when context is understood.
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... x.php/Mara
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... putra-mara
In Pali, there are 5 forms of Māra:
http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... /maara.htm
In Mahayana, I believe there are 4 forms of Māra
http://www.lamayeshe.com/glossary/term/four-maras
http://www.lamayeshe.com/glossary/term/ ... putra-mara
Buswell's Encyclopedia of Buddhism has a bit on him as well.
Unfortunately in Chinese texts it's not always clear which of them the text talking about, even when context is understood.
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... x.php/Mara
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... putra-mara
In Pali, there are 5 forms of Māra:
http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... /maara.htm
In Mahayana, I believe there are 4 forms of Māra
http://www.lamayeshe.com/glossary/term/four-maras
http://www.lamayeshe.com/glossary/term/ ... putra-mara
Buswell's Encyclopedia of Buddhism has a bit on him as well.
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Re: Is Māra a deva?
yes, thus as he also reproduces desire it is also a demon who holds the wheel of death and rebirth. but mara is more a point of view even if there is a creature called mara, this is how i see it.
this condition is described in the Brahmajala Sutra.
have you wonder how the "Ethernal God" idea emerged?
this condition is described in the Brahmajala Sutra.
have you wonder how the "Ethernal God" idea emerged?
true dharma is inexpressible.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
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Re: Is Māra a deva?
That would actually be a depiction of Yama(raja), the Lord of Death.javier.espinoza.t wrote:it is also a demon who holds the wheel of death and rebirth.
Does anyone know why Mara would be considered a Deva (god), rather than an Asura (jealous god/ demigod/ antigod/ titan)? I thought Devas in general were benevolent, whereas Mara is akin to the Judeo-Christian figure of Satan trying to tempt Christ.
The scene with Mara having a army of demons shoot arrows at Buddha Shakyamuni to get him to break his samadhi and emerge from under the Bodhi tree, in particular, makes me think of the Bhavachakra depiction of Asuras waging war against the Devas over the Pāriyātra tree.
"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme
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Re: Is Māra a deva?
I believe this too.javier.espinoza.t wrote:... mara is more a point of view ...
So Mara is not a deva.
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Re: Is Māra a deva?
i consider him deva and demon because of his position and because he holds and propagates a demonic point of view. Demon means not only the ugly beings haha for example we see human soldiers can be demons too because they spread fear, death and misery through invasions; and roothless politicians whom live in constant dispute, both like the asuras -wich in the scriptures are considered demons-.Karma Jinpa wrote:That would actually be a depiction of Yama(raja), the Lord of Death.javier.espinoza.t wrote:it is also a demon who holds the wheel of death and rebirth.
Does anyone know why Mara would be considered a Deva (god), rather than an Asura (jealous god/ demigod/ antigod/ titan)? I thought Devas in general were benevolent, whereas Mara is akin to the Judeo-Christian figure of Satan trying to tempt Christ.
The scene with Mara having a army of demons shoot arrows at Buddha Shakyamuni to get him to break his samadhi and emerge from under the Bodhi tree, in particular, makes me think of the Bhavachakra depiction of Asuras waging war against the Devas over the Pāriyātra tree.
now, Mara as a symptom can be identified with a mind logical tendency characteristic of such point of view, as say "i", "i'am separated from you", "i created the world", "i created you and all sentient beings", "i'am to be worshiped", "i'am not afected by impermanence", " "i'am beyhond the effect of causes", "i can do whatever i want without consequences" and so.
we all have to face this kind of ideas, particulary in judeo-christian and islamic religions where people postrates to this point of view; and in the past, if people did not faced and accepted this in public, where just burned alive.
i believe mara is represented holding arms against Buddha because Dharma represents a serious -if not the only- menace to such demonic point of view.
this is the personal conclusion i came about mara
true dharma is inexpressible.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?
No, since they occupy the top rank of desire realm devas.Vidyavajra wrote:Since the dévas are at least partly comparable to the angelic hierarchies of the Abrahamic faiths, could māras, now in the special sense of a class of beings, possibly be considered as “fallen” dévas paralleling the “fallen angels”—dévas who become evil while retaining powers that give them a certain influence within our realm? Any opinions?
Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?
Christianity is rather unique in its view of the devil. Even the Old Testament Satan is distinct. I wouldn't look then for a parallel there. A better comparison could be made to the gods and goddesses of Greek and Norse mythology, complete with the frequent conflicts between the devas and the asuras being similar to the struggle between the gods and giants.Vidyavajra wrote:Since the dévas are at least partly comparable to the angelic hierarchies of the Abrahamic faiths, could māras, now in the special sense of a class of beings, possibly be considered as “fallen” dévas paralleling the “fallen angels”—dévas who become evil while retaining powers that give them a certain influence within our realm? Any opinions?
Re: Is Māra a deva?
I believe Mara comes from the subconscious, but many would not agree with me. Mara is subconscious vibrations who come from others that starts subconscious processes within oneself.PuerAzaelis wrote:I believe this too.javier.espinoza.t wrote:... mara is more a point of view ...
So Mara is not a deva.
Re: Is Māra a deva?
What do you mean by the term "subconscious"?odysseus wrote:I believe Mara comes from the subconscious, but many would not agree with me. Mara is subconscious vibrations who come from others that starts subconscious processes within oneself.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Is Māra a deva?
I think we should be careful to avoid overemphasizing the Mara-Satan parallelism. In Christianity, Satan is an agent of utter evil and destruction, but Mara is a tempter figure associated primarily with worldly desire rather than total evil. I suppose in a sense, Mara represents a worldly understanding of goodness (i.e. sensual enjoyment), and this worldly goodness is compatible with life as a deva.Karma Jinpa wrote:That would actually be a depiction of Yama(raja), the Lord of Death.javier.espinoza.t wrote:it is also a demon who holds the wheel of death and rebirth.
Does anyone know why Mara would be considered a Deva (god), rather than an Asura (jealous god/ demigod/ antigod/ titan)? I thought Devas in general were benevolent, whereas Mara is akin to the Judeo-Christian figure of Satan trying to tempt Christ.
The scene with Mara having a army of demons shoot arrows at Buddha Shakyamuni to get him to break his samadhi and emerge from under the Bodhi tree, in particular, makes me think of the Bhavachakra depiction of Asuras waging war against the Devas over the Pāriyātra tree.
Re: Is Māra a deva?
Mara is evil. Not a deva.Bakmoon wrote: but Mara is a tempter figure associated primarily with worldly desire rather than total evil.
Last edited by odysseus on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.