Is Māra a deva?

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Caoimhghín
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Is Māra a deva?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Is Māra considered a deva, generally (traditionally?), lord of the highest of the sense-pleasure heavens?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Post by Admin_PC »

Coëmgenu wrote:Is Māra considered a deva, generally (traditionally?), lord of the highest of the sense-pleasure heavens?
That's my understanding, yes - with the caveat that he is also identified with the 5 Skandhas.
He appears 2202 times in the Daizokyo Database of the Taisho Tripitaka.
This article might be of interest from a Mahayana perspective:
https://www.academia.edu/5761289/The_Fo ... a_Buddhism
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Admin_PC wrote:That's my understanding, yes - with the caveat that he is also identified with the 5 Skandhas.
Are devāḥ considered, traditionally, to lack the 5 aggregates? Is there such a thing as a being with no aggregates?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Post by Malcolm »

Coëmgenu wrote:
Admin_PC wrote:That's my understanding, yes - with the caveat that he is also identified with the 5 Skandhas.
Are devāḥ considered, traditionally, to lack the 5 aggregates? Is there such a thing as a being with no aggregates?
No. Even formless realm devas have two of the four mental aggregates, formations and consciousness.
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Post by Admin_PC »

Coëmgenu wrote:
Admin_PC wrote:That's my understanding, yes - with the caveat that he is also identified with the 5 Skandhas.
Are devāḥ considered, traditionally, to lack the 5 aggregates? Is there such a thing as a being with no aggregates?
I'm having trouble finding the right words to communicate the idea. Mara gets identified with the general idea of the 5 clinging aggregates upon which a misguided imputation of self leads to suffering (ie Skandhamara), in addition to being identified with the deva.
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Admin_PC wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Admin_PC wrote:That's my understanding, yes - with the caveat that he is also identified with the 5 Skandhas.
Are devāḥ considered, traditionally, to lack the 5 aggregates? Is there such a thing as a being with no aggregates?
I'm having trouble finding the right words to communicate the idea. Mara gets identified with the general idea of the 5 clinging aggregates upon which a misguided imputation of self leads to suffering (ie Skandhamara), in addition to being identified with the deva.
There is a metaphorical interpretation of "what" Māra is, one that I am very friendly to, but there is also the notion of Māra as an external entity, such a notion exists in various traditional Buddhist literature collections. This is the Māra that I was referring to in the OP.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Tārāmitra »

Since the dévas are at least partly comparable to the angelic hierarchies of the Abrahamic faiths, could māras, now in the special sense of a class of beings, possibly be considered as “fallen” dévas paralleling the “fallen angels”—dévas who become evil while retaining powers that give them a certain influence within our realm? Any opinions?
“What leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to liberation: that I have not declared.”
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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Vidyavajra wrote:Since the dévas are at least partly comparable to the angelic hierarchies of the Abrahamic faiths, could māras, now in the special sense of a class of beings, possibly be considered as “fallen” dévas paralleling the “fallen angels”—dévas who become evil while retaining powers that give them a certain influence within our realm? Any opinions?
I think that in Buddhist cosmology, there is no "ultimate agent" from which to fall, given that "falling" is equivalent, in Christian terms, to entering into non-conformity to the will/nature of what is "Godness". The issue is with God being considered a "being" in Western metaphysics. Eastern metaphysics would never concede to an Anuttarasaṃyaksambuddha being considered a "being", or perhaps even an "agentified being" necessarily.

In Buddhism, those who "fall" end in hell-realms, with no agency or power, unlike Satan, who has immense power over all earthly things, being the "Prince of the Earth", but, in Buddhism, beings "fall" of their own accord and their own karma into hell-realms, where they are powerless.

In Christianity, devils "fall" on account of their non-conformity to the ways and the laws of Godliness, which could be phrased in Dharmic terms as "nonconformity to the Buddhadharma", but is not necessarily phrased so.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Tārāmitra »

Coëmgenu wrote:
Vidyavajra wrote:Since the dévas are at least partly comparable to the angelic hierarchies of the Abrahamic faiths, could māras, now in the special sense of a class of beings, possibly be considered as “fallen” dévas paralleling the “fallen angels”—dévas who become evil while retaining powers that give them a certain influence within our realm? Any opinions?
I think that in Buddhist cosmology, there is no "ultimate agent" from which to fall, given that "falling" is equivalent, in Christian terms, to entering into non-conformity to the will/nature of what is "Godness". The issue is with God being considered a "being" in Western metaphysics. Eastern metaphysics would never concede to an Anuttarasaṃyaksambuddha being considered a "being", or perhaps even an "agentified being" necessarily.

In Buddhism, those who "fall" end in hell-realms, with no agency or power, unlike Satan, who has immense power over all earthly things, being the "Prince of the Earth", but, in Buddhism, beings "fall" of their own accord and their own karma into hell-realms, where they are powerless.

In Christianity, devils "fall" on account of their non-conformity to the ways and the laws of Godliness, which could be phrased in Dharmic terms as "nonconformity to the Buddhadharma", but is not necessarily phrased so.
In Christianity, too, those who fall end in hell-realms. The possibilities for falling are more relative in Buddhism as one might fall from a state of greater freedom of realization, such as the human state, to a ‘lower’ state such as an animal, and so on and so forth, including endless possibilities for relative falls that do not necessarily end up in a hell-realm. In Christianity, Satan is only in a condition to exercise a relative power (of influencing the will of humans) for a limited period of time, whereupon it is over and only hell remains for him. I think there is space for such a possibility within Buddhist cosmology, actually. Just as there exist short-lived humans who have become evil psychopaths and fallen from human nature, while continuing to occupy a human body and even exercising great power within our human society for a while until they die—why couldn't a comparable thing happen to a powerful and long-lived déva, similar to the case of fallen angels? Surely one would end up in the hell-states sooner or later once having entered that path, but from a human point of view, that might take ages of time for such a being before their conditioned individuation is exhausted.
“What leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to higher knowledge, to enlightenment, to liberation: that I have not declared.”
Buddha Śākyamuni, Teacher of Gods and Men

{Formerly known as Vidyavajra}
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Post by Admin_PC »

Okay "Devaputra-māra" (Son of the Deva Māra) is the 1 of the multiple forms of māra that you are referring to.

Unfortunately in Chinese texts it's not always clear which of them the text talking about, even when context is understood.
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... x.php/Mara
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... putra-mara

In Pali, there are 5 forms of Māra:
http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... /maara.htm

In Mahayana, I believe there are 4 forms of Māra
http://www.lamayeshe.com/glossary/term/four-maras
http://www.lamayeshe.com/glossary/term/ ... putra-mara

Buswell's Encyclopedia of Buddhism has a bit on him as well.
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Post by jet.urgyen »

yes, thus as he also reproduces desire it is also a demon who holds the wheel of death and rebirth. but mara is more a point of view even if there is a creature called mara, this is how i see it.

this condition is described in the Brahmajala Sutra.

have you wonder how the "Ethernal God" idea emerged?
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Post by Palzang Jangchub »

javier.espinoza.t wrote:it is also a demon who holds the wheel of death and rebirth.
That would actually be a depiction of Yama(raja), the Lord of Death.

Does anyone know why Mara would be considered a Deva (god), rather than an Asura (jealous god/ demigod/ antigod/ titan)? I thought Devas in general were benevolent, whereas Mara is akin to the Judeo-Christian figure of Satan trying to tempt Christ.

The scene with Mara having a army of demons shoot arrows at Buddha Shakyamuni to get him to break his samadhi and emerge from under the Bodhi tree, in particular, makes me think of the Bhavachakra depiction of Asuras waging war against the Devas over the Pāriyātra tree.
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Post by PuerAzaelis »

javier.espinoza.t wrote:... mara is more a point of view ...
I believe this too.

So Mara is not a deva.
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Post by jet.urgyen »

Karma Jinpa wrote:
javier.espinoza.t wrote:it is also a demon who holds the wheel of death and rebirth.
That would actually be a depiction of Yama(raja), the Lord of Death.

Does anyone know why Mara would be considered a Deva (god), rather than an Asura (jealous god/ demigod/ antigod/ titan)? I thought Devas in general were benevolent, whereas Mara is akin to the Judeo-Christian figure of Satan trying to tempt Christ.

The scene with Mara having a army of demons shoot arrows at Buddha Shakyamuni to get him to break his samadhi and emerge from under the Bodhi tree, in particular, makes me think of the Bhavachakra depiction of Asuras waging war against the Devas over the Pāriyātra tree.
i consider him deva and demon because of his position and because he holds and propagates a demonic point of view. Demon means not only the ugly beings haha for example we see human soldiers can be demons too because they spread fear, death and misery through invasions; and roothless politicians whom live in constant dispute, both like the asuras -wich in the scriptures are considered demons-.

now, Mara as a symptom can be identified with a mind logical tendency characteristic of such point of view, as say "i", "i'am separated from you", "i created the world", "i created you and all sentient beings", "i'am to be worshiped", "i'am not afected by impermanence", " "i'am beyhond the effect of causes", "i can do whatever i want without consequences" and so.

we all have to face this kind of ideas, particulary in judeo-christian and islamic religions where people postrates to this point of view; and in the past, if people did not faced and accepted this in public, where just burned alive.

i believe mara is represented holding arms against Buddha because Dharma represents a serious -if not the only- menace to such demonic point of view.

this is the personal conclusion i came about mara
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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by Malcolm »

Vidyavajra wrote:Since the dévas are at least partly comparable to the angelic hierarchies of the Abrahamic faiths, could māras, now in the special sense of a class of beings, possibly be considered as “fallen” dévas paralleling the “fallen angels”—dévas who become evil while retaining powers that give them a certain influence within our realm? Any opinions?
No, since they occupy the top rank of desire realm devas.
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Re: Where does the Abrahamic God (יְהֹוָה) "fit" in Buddhist cosmology?

Post by cj39 »

Vidyavajra wrote:Since the dévas are at least partly comparable to the angelic hierarchies of the Abrahamic faiths, could māras, now in the special sense of a class of beings, possibly be considered as “fallen” dévas paralleling the “fallen angels”—dévas who become evil while retaining powers that give them a certain influence within our realm? Any opinions?
Christianity is rather unique in its view of the devil. Even the Old Testament Satan is distinct. I wouldn't look then for a parallel there. A better comparison could be made to the gods and goddesses of Greek and Norse mythology, complete with the frequent conflicts between the devas and the asuras being similar to the struggle between the gods and giants.
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Post by odysseus »

PuerAzaelis wrote:
javier.espinoza.t wrote:... mara is more a point of view ...
I believe this too.

So Mara is not a deva.
I believe Mara comes from the subconscious, but many would not agree with me. Mara is subconscious vibrations who come from others that starts subconscious processes within oneself.
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Post by Grigoris »

odysseus wrote:I believe Mara comes from the subconscious, but many would not agree with me. Mara is subconscious vibrations who come from others that starts subconscious processes within oneself.
What do you mean by the term "subconscious"?
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Post by Bakmoon »

Karma Jinpa wrote:
javier.espinoza.t wrote:it is also a demon who holds the wheel of death and rebirth.
That would actually be a depiction of Yama(raja), the Lord of Death.

Does anyone know why Mara would be considered a Deva (god), rather than an Asura (jealous god/ demigod/ antigod/ titan)? I thought Devas in general were benevolent, whereas Mara is akin to the Judeo-Christian figure of Satan trying to tempt Christ.

The scene with Mara having a army of demons shoot arrows at Buddha Shakyamuni to get him to break his samadhi and emerge from under the Bodhi tree, in particular, makes me think of the Bhavachakra depiction of Asuras waging war against the Devas over the Pāriyātra tree.
I think we should be careful to avoid overemphasizing the Mara-Satan parallelism. In Christianity, Satan is an agent of utter evil and destruction, but Mara is a tempter figure associated primarily with worldly desire rather than total evil. I suppose in a sense, Mara represents a worldly understanding of goodness (i.e. sensual enjoyment), and this worldly goodness is compatible with life as a deva.
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Re: Is Māra a deva?

Post by odysseus »

Bakmoon wrote: but Mara is a tempter figure associated primarily with worldly desire rather than total evil.
Mara is evil. Not a deva.
Last edited by odysseus on Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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