The attainment of the Arhats

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kirtu
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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by kirtu » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:30 am

Malcolm wrote: They are revived by a Buddha from a samadhi of cessation. They then begin on the bodhisattva path, starting at the bottom.
But they proceed very quickly because of their accumulation of wisdom. The real issue here is that they spend eons in their cessation samadhi. Thus their attainment is said to be an obstacle to full enlightenment.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Malcolm » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:12 am

kirtu wrote:
Malcolm wrote: They are revived by a Buddha from a samadhi of cessation. They then begin on the bodhisattva path, starting at the bottom.
But they proceed very quickly because of their accumulation of wisdom. The real issue here is that they spend eons in their cessation samadhi. Thus their attainment is said to be an obstacle to full enlightenment.

Kirt

Indeed.

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by dreambow » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:58 am

Does that mean only people from your own chosen linage or school are truly enlightened? Others are mere plodders!

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Astus » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:02 am

Malcolm wrote:They are revived by a Buddha from a samadhi of cessation.
Do you know where this interpretation began? Nirodhasamapatti is accessible to both non-returners and arhats equally, and arhats are necessarily free from such formless absorptions in every system. Assuming that arhats are stuck in a samadhi of cessation contradicts what being an arhat means.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by muni » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:35 pm

H H Dalai Lama dialogue in Thailand:
The final afternoon session began with one of the Thai monks saying that while he had come to appreciate that it would be more appropriate to refer to Tibetan and Thai Buddhism as “the same goal, same path,” the Mahayana praises the Bodhisattva ideal rather than the Arhat ideal. He asked how we should reconcile this difference. His Holiness explained that the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras of the Sanskrit tradition mention the Hearer Vehicle, the Solitary Buddha Vehicle and the Bodhisattva Vehicle (Sravakayana, Pratyekabuddhayana and the Bodhisattvayana), but that it would be a misunderstanding to see them as completely different.......
http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/888- ... second-day
Which human beings are “fortunate and connected?” They are the ones who generate love, compassion, and devotion, as well as the commitment to remain steadfast on the path until all beings are liberated. Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches.

Examining the faults of others will not benefit anyone and only leads to more disturbing emotions, blocking our path to liberation. Penor Rinpoche

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:57 pm

muni wrote:H H Dalai Lama dialogue in Thailand:
The final afternoon session began with one of the Thai monks saying that while he had come to appreciate that it would be more appropriate to refer to Tibetan and Thai Buddhism as “the same goal, same path,” the Mahayana praises the Bodhisattva ideal rather than the Arhat ideal. He asked how we should reconcile this difference. His Holiness explained that the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras of the Sanskrit tradition mention the Hearer Vehicle, the Solitary Buddha Vehicle and the Bodhisattva Vehicle (Sravakayana, Pratyekabuddhayana and the Bodhisattvayana), but that it would be a misunderstanding to see them as completely different.......
http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/888- ... second-day
:namaste:
I participate in this forum using Google Translator. https://translate.google.com.br/

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Malcolm » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:22 pm

Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:They are revived by a Buddha from a samadhi of cessation.
Do you know where this interpretation began?
The Lanka.

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Astus » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:The Lanka.
Where in the Lankavatara Sutra is that taught? That sutra teaches the five gotras (2.20), and only those of the indeterminate lineage "who are instructed in these three lineages but who enter according to one teaching and succeed according to another." (tr Red Pine). This doctrine is also upheld by Yogacara where those who belong to the sravaka family attain the nirvana without residue and nothing more. Vasubandhu in his Commentary on the Lotus Sutra makes a clear distinction as well:

"This means that those who have produced the thought of enlightenment and who are carrying out bodhisattva practice will plant good roots of merit and be able to realize enlightenment. It is not the case that those who have not originally produced the thought of enlightenment, such as ordinary people and the disciples who are fixed [in the Small Vehicle], are able to attain it."
(Tiantai Lotus Texts, BDK ed, p 135)

and

"Regarding the disciples’ attainment of a prediction, [it should be known that] there are four types of disciples: 1) disciples who are fixed [in the path of the Small Vehicle], 2) arrogant disciples, 3) disciples who have retreated from the thought of enlightenment, and 4) transformation disciples.
The two types of disciples who receive a prediction from the tathāgatas are the transformation disciples and the disciples who have retreated from the thought of enlightenment. Since disciples who are fixed [in the path of the Small Vehicle] and arrogant disciples have faculties that are not yet mature, they are not given predictions of enlightenment."

(p 142)

Similarly, the Lankavatara Sutra states regarding the question of prediction given to arhats:

"Mahamati, there are Bodhisattvas practising the work of the Bodhisattva here and in other Buddha-lands, who, however, are desirous of attaining the Nirvana of the Sravakayana. In order to turn their inclination away from the Sravakayana and to make them exert themselves in the course of the Mahayana, the Sravakas in transformation are given assurance [as to their future Buddhahood] by the Body of Transformation"
(7.89, tr Suzuki)

And to clarify the meaning of arhat:

"Mahamati said: Now, the Blessed One declares that there are three kinds of Arhats: to which one of the three is this term "Arhat" to be applied? To one who makes straightway for the path of cessation? Or to one who neglects all his accumulated stock of merit for the sake of his vow to enlighten others? Or to one who is a form of the Transformation [Buddha]?
Replied the Blessed One: Mahamati, [the term "Arhat"] applies to the Sravaka who makes straightway for the path of cessation, and to no others. Mahamati, as for the others, they are those who have finished practising the deeds of a Bodhisattva; they are forms of the Transformation Buddha."

(2.49, tr Suzuki)

While the "sustaining power" of the Buddhas applies only to bodhisattvas and helps them get beyond various forms of absorption:

"What is this twofold power that sustains the Bodhisattvas? The one is the power by which they are sustained to go through the Samadhis and Samapattis; while the other is the power whereby the Buddhas manifest themselves in person before the Bodhisattvas and baptise them with their own hands."
(2.40, tr Suzuki)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by kirtu » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:10 pm

Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The Lanka.
Where in the Lankavatara Sutra is that taught?
LVI (56), verses 207-210 : at the end of chapter 2
207. Like a piece of wood floating on the waves of the ocean, the Śrāvaka obsessed with individual marks is driven along [the stream of existence].
208. Though disengaged from the actively-functioning passions, they [the Śrāvakas] are still bound up with the habit-energy of the passions; intoxicated with the liquor of the Samādhi, they still have their abode in the realm of outflows.
209. In this there is no course of finality, nor retrogression either; [losing himself] in the attainment of the Samādhi-body, he is not at all awakened even to the end of kalpas.
210. Like unto the drunkard who, being awakened from his intoxication, regains his intelligence, [the Śrāvakas] will have the realisation of the Buddha's truth, which is his own body.
Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Astus » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:44 pm

kirtu wrote:LVI (56), verses 207-210 : at the end of chapter 2
Thanks. The sravakas described there have not attained arhatship, but mistaken cessation for nirvana. So that applies to those of indeterminate family, not those fixed to the attainment of arhatship.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Malcolm » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:58 pm

Astus wrote:
kirtu wrote:LVI (56), verses 207-210 : at the end of chapter 2
Thanks. The sravakas described there have not attained arhatship, but mistaken cessation for nirvana. So that applies to those of indeterminate family, not those fixed to the attainment of arhatship.

No, they are arhats. Jñānavajra's commentary, Ārya-laṅkāvatāra-nāma-mahāyānasūtra-vṛtti-tathāgata-hṛdayālaṃkāra-nāma, clearly describes them as aśaikṣa āryas, āryas who are at the end of their path, i.e., śrāvaka arhats.

Jñānaśrībhadra states in his Vṛtti:
  • The way it is taught to ārya śrāvakas is that the mind in which are are no appearances is nirvana for those in whom the seed of compassion is absent. As it says:

    "Since they are intoxicated by the intoxication of samadhi,
    they abide in the dhātu free from effluents."
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Astus » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:No, they are arhats. Jñānavajra's commentary
What does he say about the difference between the gotras then? I'm asking because since the Lankavatara was an important text for the Yogacarins, and they (Asanga, Vasubandhu, Xuanzang, etc.) did not accept the idea of a single vehicle, then that interpretation you referred to is not that obvious.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Malcolm » Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:54 pm

Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No, they are arhats. Jñānavajra's commentary
What does he say about the difference between the gotras then? I'm asking because since the Lankavatara was an important text for the Yogacarins, and they (Asanga, Vasubandhu, Xuanzang, etc.) did not accept the idea of a single vehicle, then that interpretation you referred to is not that obvious.

Both commentaries state that while in reality the Buddha taught one vehicle, he did not teach the ekayāna to everyone. He taught the three vehicle system to śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas.

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Astus » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:Both commentaries state that while in reality the Buddha taught one vehicle, he did not teach the ekayāna to everyone. He taught the three vehicle system to śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas.
That is what the sutra explicitly says. But the question is whether arhatship can be a final attainment as nirvana without residue or not.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Malcolm » Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:23 pm

Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Both commentaries state that while in reality the Buddha taught one vehicle, he did not teach the ekayāna to everyone. He taught the three vehicle system to śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas.
That is what the sutra explicitly says. But the question is whether arhatship can be a final attainment as nirvana without residue or not.
According to the Lanka, no. Why? because even though arhats have no active or latent afflictions, they still have traces. This also applies to pratyekabuddhas.

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Astus » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:According to the Lanka, no. Why? because even though arhats have no active or latent afflictions, they still have traces. This also applies to pratyekabuddhas.
The Lankavatara Sutra may be interpreted that way, although it does state:

"Having had an insight into their own vehicle, they abide at the fifth or the sixth stage where they do away with the rising of the passions, but not with the habit-energy; they have not yet passed beyond the inconceivable transformation-death, and their lion-roar is, "My life is destroyed, my morality is established, etc."; they will then discipline themselves in the egolessness of persons and finally gain the knowledge of Nirvana."
(2.20)

And the Cheng Weishi Lun explains:

"First question. - If Jneyavarana, assisting the pure deeds, produces existence (i.e., birth and death), the saints of the two Vehicles of the 'fixed' class (who cannot become Bodhisattvas) will never enter Nirupadhisesanirvana (Nirvana-without-residue). The same is true of the Prthagjanas who are fettered by their vexing passions (Klesavarana).
...
Reply to the first question. - The Jneyavarana does not constitute an obstacle to deliverance, because it is not in its power to provoke deeds and 'moisten' reincarnation."

(p 611, 613, tr Wei Tat)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Tiago Simões » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Both commentaries state that while in reality the Buddha taught one vehicle, he did not teach the ekayāna to everyone. He taught the three vehicle system to śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas.
That is what the sutra explicitly says. But the question is whether arhatship can be a final attainment as nirvana without residue or not.
According to the Lanka, no. Why? because even though arhats have no active or latent afflictions, they still have traces. This also applies to pratyekabuddhas.
A question for people of slow understanding like me,
So śrāvakas understand the emptiness of self, but only have a partial understanding of the emptiness of phenomena, is that how it should be understood? Also how does a complete understanding of the emptiness of phenomena lead to developing bodhicitta?
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by kirtu » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:42 pm

Malcolm wrote: ... Jñānavajra's commentary, Ārya-laṅkāvatāra-nāma-mahāyānasūtra-vṛtti-tathāgata-hṛdayālaṃkāra-nāma ...
You have cited this commentary before. Does it exist in any non-Asian language anywhere?

Thanks!

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Malcolm » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:46 pm

kirtu wrote:
Malcolm wrote: ... Jñānavajra's commentary, Ārya-laṅkāvatāra-nāma-mahāyānasūtra-vṛtti-tathāgata-hṛdayālaṃkāra-nāma ...
You have cited this commentary before. Does it exist in any non-Asian language anywhere?

Thanks!

Kirt

Unfortunately, not at this time.

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Re: The attainment of the Arhats

Post by Tiago Simões » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:30 pm

tiagolps wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Astus wrote:
That is what the sutra explicitly says. But the question is whether arhatship can be a final attainment as nirvana without residue or not.
According to the Lanka, no. Why? because even though arhats have no active or latent afflictions, they still have traces. This also applies to pratyekabuddhas.
A question for people of slow understanding like me,
So śrāvakas understand the emptiness of self, but only have a partial understanding of the emptiness of phenomena, is that how it should be understood? Also how does a complete understanding of the emptiness of phenomena lead to developing bodhicitta?
Ups, I meant śrāvakas have the realization... "So śrāvakas have the realization of the emptiness of self, but only have a partial realization of the emptiness of phenomena, is that how it should be understood?"
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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