The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

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Anonymous X
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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by Anonymous X » Sun May 21, 2017 11:15 am

dharmagoat wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:I firmly believe that our first glimpses of Buddha nature are enough to lead us confidently to right intention. Anyone open to the idea of Buddha nature, and inviting any experience of it, I am sure will see it soon enough. Then the paramitas will be recognised for what they are: signposts along the way, and bodhisattva vows become a fulfillment of a spontaneous and natural expression.
Unfortunately, you will never glimpse Buddhanature because it is not glimpsable(is that a word?). Who would be glimpsing it? I think this is a wrong notion. Recognition may also be the wrong word because it is not cognisable. This is the just the mind chattering away, repeating what you've read and heard from others.
The one thing we can experience for ourselves is our own Buddha nature. It reveals itself when the chatter subsides and we cease searching for it elsewhere. When it is known there is no need to repeat the words of others. I make a special point of not parroting the teachings. These are my own words.
I'm glad you use your own words, but I still insist that Buddhanature is not an experiential thing. Perhaps you are talking about something else? Some state of mind which still seeks something.

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dharmagoat
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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by dharmagoat » Sun May 21, 2017 11:40 am

Anonymous X wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: Unfortunately, you will never glimpse Buddhanature because it is not glimpsable(is that a word?). Who would be glimpsing it? I think this is a wrong notion. Recognition may also be the wrong word because it is not cognisable. This is the just the mind chattering away, repeating what you've read and heard from others.
The one thing we can experience for ourselves is our own Buddha nature. It reveals itself when the chatter subsides and we cease searching for it elsewhere. When it is known there is no need to repeat the words of others. I make a special point of not parroting the teachings. These are my own words.
I'm glad you use your own words, but I still insist that Buddhanature is not an experiential thing. Perhaps you are talking about something else? Some state of mind which still seeks something.
As I understand it, there is one intrinsic true nature. Like the moon behind clouds, at first we just have occasional glimpses of it. But even when we see it like this we know it is there, we know its expression, and we know how to proceed.

If this is delusion, then it is the very best delusion. Putting Buddhist principles into action becomes not just effortless, but fulfilling in itself.

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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by Anonymous X » Sun May 21, 2017 2:07 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
dharmagoat wrote: The one thing we can experience for ourselves is our own Buddha nature. It reveals itself when the chatter subsides and we cease searching for it elsewhere. When it is known there is no need to repeat the words of others. I make a special point of not parroting the teachings. These are my own words.
I'm glad you use your own words, but I still insist that Buddhanature is not an experiential thing. Perhaps you are talking about something else? Some state of mind which still seeks something.
As I understand it, there is one intrinsic true nature. Like the moon behind clouds, at first we just have occasional glimpses of it. But even when we see it like this we know it is there, we know its expression, and we know how to proceed.

If this is delusion, then it is the very best delusion. Putting Buddhist principles into action becomes not just effortless, but fulfilling in itself.
You have a theory, but it is not as you think. These are all conceptual ways of imagining what reality is like. Those glimpses are only of states of mind. Because they are not quite the everyday experience, we think we have discovered true nature. The truth is we don't know anything because there is nothing to know. I am not denying that true nature is there, but it is not a knowable 'thing' and whatever we experience is not what it is. It cannot be experienced because there is no experiencer. You cannot break it down and arrive at anything. This is not what the real masters are saying in spite of all the interpretations that get passed off as 'direct' or 'indirect' teachings. We are fooling ourselves in the deepest way. At some point, you have let these glimpses go because they will only take you in circles, give you hope, and continue the delusion extraordinaire.

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Malcolm
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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 21, 2017 2:27 pm

Anonymous X wrote: I'm glad you use your own words, but I still insist that Buddhanature is not an experiential thing.
Not for sentient beings.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Minobu
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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by Minobu » Sun May 21, 2017 7:25 pm

why can't someone please just explain Buddha nature in terms that is simple.

Some seem to imply they know something everyone else does not know and go on in debate whilst implying they know..without ever really even trying to explain it.

It makes no sense to do this sort of thing.

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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by Dharma Flower » Mon May 22, 2017 8:17 am

The Heart of Buddha's Teaching by Thich Nhat Hanh has a chapter on the Six Paramitas:
https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Thich% ... aching.pdf
Last edited by Dharma Flower on Mon May 22, 2017 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by Ayu » Mon May 22, 2017 8:18 am

Minobu wrote:why can't someone please just explain Buddha nature in terms that is simple.

Some seem to imply they know something everyone else does not know and go on in debate whilst implying they know..without ever really even trying to explain it.

It makes no sense to do this sort of thing.
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Buddha_nature
It's difficult to explain it correctly. I'm not completely sure if this explanation is genuinely correct.
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dharmagoat
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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by dharmagoat » Mon May 22, 2017 8:24 am

Anonymous X wrote:At some point, you have let these glimpses go because they will only take you in circles, give you hope, and continue the delusion extraordinaire.
I will choose hope over confusion and despondency any day. I know them too well.

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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by Anonymous X » Mon May 22, 2017 9:31 am

dharmagoat wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:At some point, you have let these glimpses go because they will only take you in circles, give you hope, and continue the delusion extraordinaire.
I will choose hope over confusion and despondency any day. I know them too well.
You are assuming that if you subtract hope, you are left with confusion and despondency. That may not be the case. You have to test it for yourself to see if it is true. I never said such a thing.

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dharmagoat
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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by dharmagoat » Mon May 22, 2017 9:51 am

Minobu wrote:why can't someone please just explain Buddha nature in terms that is simple.

Some seem to imply they know something everyone else does not know and go on in debate whilst implying they know..without ever really even trying to explain it.

It makes no sense to do this sort of thing.
Here is the best discussion of Buddha nature from a Zen perspective that I was able to find:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/myjourneyo ... ha-nature/

Describing the experience of Buddha nature, except perhaps for the purpose of introducing it as a concept, is ultimately a meaningless exercise. Buddha nature bears its fruit when we each experience it for ourselves. All the traditions of the Buddhadharma are replete with methods to realise the Buddha qualities inherent within all of us. Online our limited and precious time is best spent describing and discussing (within our tradition of choice) these time-tested methods that have been kept alive for millenia and now generously handed down to us.

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dharmagoat
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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by dharmagoat » Mon May 22, 2017 9:56 am

Anonymous X wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:At some point, you have let these glimpses go because they will only take you in circles, give you hope, and continue the delusion extraordinaire.
I will choose hope over confusion and despondency any day. I know them too well.
You are assuming that if you subtract hope, you are left with confusion and despondency. That may not be the case. You have to test it for yourself to see if it is true. I never said such a thing.
To abandon what you claim to be delusion is to return to the previous condition of hopelessness. Clearly not something I recommend for myself or anyone else.

My entire point is to emphasise the need to test the methods for ourselves. Then we may speak from our own hearts in our own words.

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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by Anonymous X » Mon May 22, 2017 10:11 am

dharmagoat wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
dharmagoat wrote: I will choose hope over confusion and despondency any day. I know them too well.
You are assuming that if you subtract hope, you are left with confusion and despondency. That may not be the case. You have to test it for yourself to see if it is true. I never said such a thing.
To abandon what you claim to be delusion is to return to the previous condition of hopelessness. Clearly not something I recommend for myself or anyone else.

My entire point is to emphasise the need to test the methods for ourselves. Then we may speak from our own hearts in our own words.
that is exactly what I'm suggesting. Abandoning of hope can only be done when you see clearly that what you hope for IS the problem. It is a form of grasping, of making a concept into a reality by chasing it. When you see your own grasping, you will eventually see that it is causing you to feel inadequate and unfulfilled. This is just basic psychology, but the rudimentary Buddhist practices of Shamata and Vipassana put you in touch with these movements and help you out of these neurotic tendencies. Only then, would it be possible to live in a different way.

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dharmagoat
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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by dharmagoat » Mon May 22, 2017 10:27 am

Anonymous X wrote:that is exactly what I'm suggesting. Abandoning of hope can only be done when you see clearly that what you hope for IS the problem. It is a form of grasping, of making a concept into a reality by chasing it. When you see your own grasping, you will eventually see that it is causing you to feel inadequate and unfulfilled. This is just basic psychology, but the rudimentary Buddhist practices of Shamata and Vipassana put you in touch with these movements and help you out of these neurotic tendencies. Only then, would it be possible to live in a different way.
So getting back to the issue of whether, when one believes they have experienced a glimpse of Buddha nature, that belief is delusional or not. The question is, in your opinion, does that really matter if the effect of the belief is increased confidence and motivation?

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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by Anonymous X » Mon May 22, 2017 12:23 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:that is exactly what I'm suggesting. Abandoning of hope can only be done when you see clearly that what you hope for IS the problem. It is a form of grasping, of making a concept into a reality by chasing it. When you see your own grasping, you will eventually see that it is causing you to feel inadequate and unfulfilled. This is just basic psychology, but the rudimentary Buddhist practices of Shamata and Vipassana put you in touch with these movements and help you out of these neurotic tendencies. Only then, would it be possible to live in a different way.
So getting back to the issue of whether, when one believes they have experienced a glimpse of Buddha nature, that belief is delusional or not. The question is, in your opinion, does that really matter if the effect of the belief is increased confidence and motivation?
What do you mean does that really matter? Increased confidence and motivation also come about naturally when you begin to let go of grasping. Often, this is accompanied by deep insight. If you begin to chase the insight, what good is increased confidence and motivation? It becomes a circular exercise. Buddhanature is always there. It is part of the fabric of everything you experience, never separate. Only you can know the extent of your own experience.

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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by dharmagoat » Mon May 22, 2017 12:43 pm

I like these explanations of Buddha nature given by Nonin, a teacher on Zen Forum International some years ago:
Buddha Nature is the true, original nature of all beings -- awake, open, and undefiled by greed, hatred, and delusion. It is not a thing, but an original condition of all existence.

So, all beings are buddha, are buddha-nature; delusion however masks our true nature. By practicing, we cut through delusion and realize our true nature.
When ego drops away, original nature (Buddha Nature) manifests, and everything is bright, clear, deep, and immeasurable. If we experience everything through the filter of the ego, we can never experience our true nature (Buddha Nature).
It really is quite unmistakable. We know it when we see it.

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Malcolm
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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 22, 2017 1:43 pm

Minobu wrote:why can't someone please just explain Buddha nature in terms that is simple.
.

Permanent, pure, self, blissful.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon May 22, 2017 2:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:Permanent ... self ...
?!

Really?!
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Malcolm
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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 22, 2017 2:54 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Permanent ... self ...
?!

Really?!

Yup, but you need to make sure understand that this is not taken literally.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon May 22, 2017 3:29 pm

Ok but even conventionally I don't get it. The eye is not the I, the ear is not the eye, etc ... but the permanent self is the I. (What else could a "permanent self be but an I?) Doesn't sound right even conventionally.

When not just say buddha nature is just emptiness?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Minobu
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Re: The Six Paramitas and the Eightfold Path

Post by Minobu » Mon May 22, 2017 5:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Minobu wrote:why can't someone please just explain Buddha nature in terms that is simple.
.

Permanent, pure, self, blissful.
this is exactly the conundrum for me...if thats all you can say in answer to my confusion and you being the ultimate source of all things Buddhist here ....
well .....it forces me to practice more...i shall demand an answer from those who have looked after me all my life...

what ever i have asked of the those at Eagle Peak They have answered in kind...

My father was cured of his bone marrow being dead for over two years and living on blood transfusions...all documented and witnessed by the Gakki at the time, CBC radio Canada and of course Sunnybrook medical centre in Toronto.


when i wondered about this Kundalini thing in my youth i had a woman out of the blue tell me some stuff i refer to as street teachings...

You ,malcolm ,clarified something for me when i used the word Tummo energy..

you said many people confuse Tummo energy with Kundalini and without telling of my experience i see now that what i thought was Kundalini was in fact The Tummo at work an what i thought was some sort of after effect and put it off as such, is the Kundalini ...lol...sounds odd but i'm sure some would really get me on that one....Enjoy!!!!!

unfortunately i was told by Nichiren sho shoshu priest at the time to basically cease and desist ....being a loyal Gakki member i did...

but it never actually left me...and well....time wasted ???.all those years i could have been getting to know Kundalini.. but again as Malcolm and others so say many times ...you need the merit....obviously i need to produce the Grace ...


ok so i shall come up with an answer...it might take time...but I know i am in Good Hands...or more precisely as Malcom put it...A Good Palm...



EDIT..father's bone marrow came back to life...an impossible thing...a piece in his breast plate and a piece i believe in the base of his spine ,,the spine thing i don't recall the spine thing but me mother said so..in any case he produced everything from this ...it was all mutated looking but everything . platelets antibodies, red and white blood cells...etc...
Last edited by Minobu on Mon May 22, 2017 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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