All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
discussionbuddhist
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:56 am

All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by discussionbuddhist » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:58 am

Malcolm wrote:
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Practically speaking then, there are those who will 'never' make use of their buddha nature.
Yes, this may be taught in sūtras, good thing this is an idea rejected completely in Atiyoga where it is held that all sentient beings will attain buddhahood.
Which Atiyoga scripture or teacher taught all sentient beings will attain buddhahood? Thanks

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:03 pm

discussionbuddhist wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Practically speaking then, there are those who will 'never' make use of their buddha nature.
Yes, this may be taught in sūtras, good thing this is an idea rejected completely in Atiyoga where it is held that all sentient beings will attain buddhahood.
Which Atiyoga scripture or teacher taught all sentient beings will attain buddhahood? Thanks
I wonder if the Buddha ever said this?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28717
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:33 pm

Anonymous X wrote:
discussionbuddhist wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, this may be taught in sūtras, good thing this is an idea rejected completely in Atiyoga where it is held that all sentient beings will attain buddhahood.
Which Atiyoga scripture or teacher taught all sentient beings will attain buddhahood? Thanks
I wonder if the Buddha ever said this?
In many places.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
discussionbuddhist wrote:
Which Atiyoga scripture or teacher taught all sentient beings will attain buddhahood? Thanks
I wonder if the Buddha ever said this?
In many places.
Can you give us a quote?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28717
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:22 pm

Anonymous X wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: I wonder if the Buddha ever said this?
In many places.
Can you give us a quote?

The Buddha predicts all sentient beings for Buddhahood in the Lotus Sūtra, among other places.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 1747
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Vasana » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:19 pm

If we are to take the bodhisattva ideal literally, then why wouldn't you expect all beings to attain Buddhahood? If compassion is a natural quality of realization and time is not a restricting factor, then why would some beings be excluded from that?

I was reading Dzogchen Ponlop's commentary on the Aspiration of Samantabhadra earlier today. After the root text it mentions it's from the 9th chapter of The Tantra of the Great perfection which shows the penetrating wisdom of Samantabhadra. "Which presents the powerful aspiration which makes it impossible for all beings not to attain Buddhahood"
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28717
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:29 pm

Vasana wrote:If we are to take the bodhisattva ideal literally, then why wouldn't you expect all beings to attain Buddhahood? If compassion is a natural quality of realization and time is not a restricting factor, then why would some beings be excluded from that?

I was reading Dzogchen Ponlop's commentary on the Aspiration of Samantabhadra earlier today. After the root text it mentions it's from the 9th chapter of The Tantra of the Great perfection which shows the penetrating wisdom of Samantabhadra. "Which presents the powerful aspiration which makes it impossible for all beings not to attain Buddhahood"

It is from the 19th chapter of that text, actually.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 1747
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Vasana » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:32 pm

Thanks for the correction. I guess the editors/translators should have spent more time proof-reading and cross referencing.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

User avatar
Losal Samten
Posts: 1464
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Losal Samten » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:33 pm

Vasana wrote:If we are to take the bodhisattva ideal literally, then why wouldn't you expect all beings to attain Buddhahood? If compassion is a natural quality of realization and time is not a restricting factor, then why would some beings be excluded from that?
Presumably because just as time is infinite, so are sentient beings, so mathematically speaking there's always going to be someone that's out of reach. (IIRC that was one Yogacarin argument for the existence of icchantikas?)

Some sutras state that the sattvadhatu neither increases nor decreases (anunatvaapurnatva), is this to be only understood in the non-conceptual ultimate sense, or relatively too, since whether infinity +1, or infinity -1, it still equals infinity?

https://www.academia.edu/30408695/The_S ... %9Br%C4%AB
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 1747
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Vasana » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:37 pm

Losal Samten wrote:
Vasana wrote:If we are to take the bodhisattva ideal literally, then why wouldn't you expect all beings to attain Buddhahood? If compassion is a natural quality of realization and time is not a restricting factor, then why would some beings be excluded from that?
Presumably because just as time is infinite, so are sentient beings, so mathematically speaking there's always going to be someone that's out of reach. (IIRC that was one Yogacarin argument for the existence of icchantikas?)

Some sutras state that the sattvadhatu neither increases nor decreases (anunatvaapurnatva), is this to be only understood in the non-conceptual ultimate sense, or relatively too, since whether infinity +1, or infinity -1, it still equals infinity?

https://www.academia.edu/30408695/The_S ... %9Br%C4%AB
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche from 'As it is Vol 1'.

'For sentient beings in general, there is no end to samsara. But for each sentient being individually, there is an end. Because when we recognize mind essence and become stable in that, the very root of further samsaric existence has been exhausted. For the individual sentient being, samsara does end. But for sentient beings as a whole, there is no end to samsara.'
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 3162
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:48 pm

In Mahayanasutralamkara 4:11 (or 3:11 of Thurman) even Ju Mipham supports the 'permanent lack' of a cause for buddhahood. This is just part of his comments:
In each of these four cases, individuals are overpowered by forceful negative circumstances, possess a weak cause, and their potential remains inactive, even though they may possess the Great Vehicle potential. Until their situation changes, they remain far from enlightenment. Therefore, when it is said that they “have no potential,” this negation implies deficiency. Finally, when the root text speaks of those who “lack the cause,” it refers to a case that is different from the aforementioned four. When such individuals are said to “have no potential,” it is because they permanently lack the cause for reaching liberation.
Maitreya, Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras, page 73.

So even though all beings have buddha potential or nature, if no causes arise, then no buddhahood manifests.
Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!
Manjushri-namasamgiti

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28717
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:48 pm

Losal Samten wrote:
Vasana wrote:If we are to take the bodhisattva ideal literally, then why wouldn't you expect all beings to attain Buddhahood? If compassion is a natural quality of realization and time is not a restricting factor, then why would some beings be excluded from that?
Presumably because just as time is infinite, so are sentient beings, so mathematically speaking there's always going to be someone that's out of reach. (IIRC that was one Yogacarin argument for the existence of icchantikas?)

Some sutras state that the sattvadhatu neither increases nor decreases (anunatvaapurnatva), is this to be only understood in the non-conceptual ultimate sense, or relatively too, since whether infinity +1, or infinity -1, it still equals infinity?

https://www.academia.edu/30408695/The_S ... %9Br%C4%AB
This point is addressed by Longchenpa at the end of the difficult points chapter in the Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle.He resolves the difficulty by stating that while all sentient beings are liberated at the end of the great eon, because there is never any limit to latent traces in the dharmadhātu, new sentient beings can always arise. He claims these two points of view are not contradictory.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:25 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:In Mahayanasutralamkara 4:11 (or 3:11 of Thurman) even Ju Mipham supports the 'permanent lack' of a cause for buddhahood. This is just part of his comments:
In each of these four cases, individuals are overpowered by forceful negative circumstances, possess a weak cause, and their potential remains inactive, even though they may possess the Great Vehicle potential. Until their situation changes, they remain far from enlightenment. Therefore, when it is said that they “have no potential,” this negation implies deficiency. Finally, when the root text speaks of those who “lack the cause,” it refers to a case that is different from the aforementioned four. When such individuals are said to “have no potential,” it is because they permanently lack the cause for reaching liberation.
Maitreya, Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras, page 73.

So even though all beings have buddha potential or nature, if no causes arise, then no buddhahood manifests.
What would be a 'cause' for Buddhahood?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28717
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:16 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
So even though all beings have buddha potential or nature, if no causes arise, then no buddhahood manifests.
Dzogchen rejects this point of view. All sentient beings will eventually obtain buddhahood.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 3162
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:28 pm

Anonymous X wrote: What would be a 'cause' for Buddhahood?
Ju Mipham comments on XXI:60 at the end of the text: (my underlining)
The characteristics of the ground of buddhahood are discerned in the following way. First, the essence of the buddha ground is the accomplishment of the ultimate objective, or reality, which is great enlightenment endowed with both natural purity and the purity that manifests in the absence of the adventitious stains. The cause of such enlightenment is the emerging definitively and perfectly beyond all of the grounds, and its effect is a forever unfailing supremacy among all sentient beings.
Maitreya. Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras.
Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!
Manjushri-namasamgiti

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:01 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: What would be a 'cause' for Buddhahood?
Ju Mipham comments on XXI:60 at the end of the text: (my underlining)
The characteristics of the ground of buddhahood are discerned in the following way. First, the essence of the buddha ground is the accomplishment of the ultimate objective, or reality, which is great enlightenment endowed with both natural purity and the purity that manifests in the absence of the adventitious stains. The cause of such enlightenment is the emerging definitively and perfectly beyond all of the grounds, and its effect is a forever unfailing supremacy among all sentient beings.
Maitreya. Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras.
This really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. How could anyone understand this?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28717
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:02 pm

Anonymous X wrote:
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: What would be a 'cause' for Buddhahood?
Ju Mipham comments on XXI:60 at the end of the text: (my underlining)
The characteristics of the ground of buddhahood are discerned in the following way. First, the essence of the buddha ground is the accomplishment of the ultimate objective, or reality, which is great enlightenment endowed with both natural purity and the purity that manifests in the absence of the adventitious stains. The cause of such enlightenment is the emerging definitively and perfectly beyond all of the grounds, and its effect is a forever unfailing supremacy among all sentient beings.
Maitreya. Ornament of the Great Vehicle Sutras.
This really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. How could anyone understand this?
Looks like an editorial fail.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 3162
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:24 pm

Perhaps Vasubandhu's comments (Thurman's version) will make clear, what does not seem so unclear. First the root verse 60 of Maitreya, then Vasubandhu. Verse 61 is skipped:
60. You have achieved the ultimate!
You have transcended all the stages!
You have become the chief of all beings!
You are the liberator of all beings!

The buddha character is explained here under headings: nature, cause,
result, activity...
The ultimate achieved is pure suchness, which is the natural reality body
of the buddhas. The transcending through all the bodhisattva stages is the cause.
The achievement of supremacy over all beings is the result. The liberation of all beings
is the activity.
Whether one puts the emphasis on the paramita practices during the 10 stages, or the notion of 'transcending through' which DZ folk may prefer, it seems clear enough.
Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!
Manjushri-namasamgiti

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28717
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:53 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:Perhaps Vasubandhu's comments (Thurman's version) will make clear, what does not seem so unclear. First the root verse 60 of Maitreya, then Vasubandhu. Verse 61 is skipped:
60. You have achieved the ultimate!
You have transcended all the stages!
You have become the chief of all beings!
You are the liberator of all beings!

The buddha character is explained here under headings: nature, cause,
result, activity...
The ultimate achieved is pure suchness, which is the natural reality body
of the buddhas. The transcending through all the bodhisattva stages is the cause.
The achievement of supremacy over all beings is the result. The liberation of all beings
is the activity.
Whether one puts the emphasis on the paramita practices during the 10 stages, or the notion of 'transcending through' which DZ folk may prefer, it seems clear enough.
I think "rising through" is more apt, it just means going through the stags, either one by one, or by skipping stages, as is the case for some bodhisattvas.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Strive
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:24 pm

Re: All Sentient Beings will attain Buddhahood?

Post by Strive » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Losal Samten wrote:
Vasana wrote:If we are to take the bodhisattva ideal literally, then why wouldn't you expect all beings to attain Buddhahood? If compassion is a natural quality of realization and time is not a restricting factor, then why would some beings be excluded from that?
Presumably because just as time is infinite, so are sentient beings, so mathematically speaking there's always going to be someone that's out of reach. (IIRC that was one Yogacarin argument for the existence of icchantikas?)

Some sutras state that the sattvadhatu neither increases nor decreases (anunatvaapurnatva), is this to be only understood in the non-conceptual ultimate sense, or relatively too, since whether infinity +1, or infinity -1, it still equals infinity?

https://www.academia.edu/30408695/The_S ... %9Br%C4%AB
This point is addressed by Longchenpa at the end of the difficult points chapter in the Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle.He resolves the difficulty by stating that while all sentient beings are liberated at the end of the great eon, because there is never any limit to latent traces in the dharmadhātu, new sentient beings can always arise. He claims these two points of view are not contradictory.
Hi,

Is it realistic to believe all the billions and billions of non buddhist on this earth will some how convert to buddhism and become buddhas? :thinking:

Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Astus, Baidu [Spider], ratna, Sammã-sambodhi and 38 guests