Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by CedarTree »

Lol :tongue:

Practice, Practice, Practice
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by Queequeg »

CedarTree wrote: It's a subtle point that I feel we are either treating in a Reductionist or Eliminative fashion which I am not that comfortable with doing anymore when I think of points of inquiry.
Seems to me the reductionist approach is the attachment to emptiness we are warned about.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by CedarTree »

Dan74 wrote:The clinging habits are subtle and tenacious. It's not that we have to uproot every single one of them in one go, but enough. Great Faith, Great Doubt and Great Determination, they say.

Or what did you mean "by reason"?

Edit: The water is just our ignorant perceptions. They get kinda stale from the grasping and the self-reference, so after the bottom falls out, we are more of a pipe clear water can flow through unimpeded, to borrow Guo Gu's analogy from a Monday talk.

Or so one hopes! ;)

Seriously though, I am no teacher and a pretty crap practitioner with a head full of ideas. Take everything I say with a big dollop of salt.
Haha you are awesome, :) I just feel we are missing out on a central dynamic here. I think you see it too, once you get to this point it makes sense why there is self, fear, stress. They arise almost from the omniscience of the mind knowing the reality of things. (I am going to far hah but important to make drive the point home to the hundreds viewing this thread so we can start defining an answer ;))

Practice, Practice, Practice
User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by CedarTree »

Queequeg wrote:
CedarTree wrote: It's a subtle point that I feel we are either treating in a Reductionist or Eliminative fashion which I am not that comfortable with doing anymore when I think of points of inquiry.
Seems to me the reductionist approach is the attachment to emptiness we are warned about.
Could be, I think with the significance of emptiness and not/non/no self we are not understanding the other side in such a full and rich way and so our understanding isn't balanced.

Practice, Practice, Practice
User avatar
Dan74
Former staff member
Posts: 3403
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:59 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by Dan74 »

CedarTree wrote:
Dan74 wrote:The clinging habits are subtle and tenacious. It's not that we have to uproot every single one of them in one go, but enough. Great Faith, Great Doubt and Great Determination, they say.

Or what did you mean "by reason"?

Edit: The water is just our ignorant perceptions. They get kinda stale from the grasping and the self-reference, so after the bottom falls out, we are more of a pipe clear water can flow through unimpeded, to borrow Guo Gu's analogy from a Monday talk.

Or so one hopes! ;)

Seriously though, I am no teacher and a pretty crap practitioner with a head full of ideas. Take everything I say with a big dollop of salt.
Haha you are awesome, :) I just feel we are missing out on a central dynamic here. I think you see it too, once you get to this point it makes sense why there is self, fear, stress. They arise almost from the omniscience of the mind knowing the reality of things. (I am going to far hah but important to make drive the point home to the hundreds viewing this thread so we can start defining an answer ;))
Hmm... I am lost. Why is there self, fear, stress? They are propelled forward by karmic momentum, like everything else. Habits of thought, feeling, perception, volition, etc. What am I missing?

But it's subtle stuff, that's why we work with a teacher. Talking like this is like shooting in the dark, plus I hardly know how to use the bow. The chance of hitting the target is miniscule.
Last edited by Dan74 on Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by CedarTree »

Dan74 wrote:
CedarTree wrote:
Dan74 wrote:The clinging habits are subtle and tenacious. It's not that we have to uproot every single one of them in one go, but enough. Great Faith, Great Doubt and Great Determination, they say.

Or what did you mean "by reason"?

Edit: The water is just our ignorant perceptions. They get kinda stale from the grasping and the self-reference, so after the bottom falls out, we are more of a pipe clear water can flow through unimpeded, to borrow Guo Gu's analogy from a Monday talk.

Or so one hopes! ;)

Seriously though, I am no teacher and a pretty crap practitioner with a head full of ideas. Take everything I say with a big dollop of salt.
Haha you are awesome, :) I just feel we are missing out on a central dynamic here. I think you see it too, once you get to this point it makes sense why there is self, fear, stress. They arise almost from the omniscience of the mind knowing the reality of things. (I am going to far hah but important to make drive the point home to the hundreds viewing this thread so we can start defining an answer ;))
Hmm... I am lost. Why is there self, fear, stress? There are propelled forward by karmic momentum, like everything else. Habits of thought, feeling, perception, volition, etc. What am I missing?
Individual vantage point and the characteristic nature of awakeness. Death eliminating the individual vantage point of awakeness and thus subjective experience and this whole "mess" of things creates fear, distinction, divide, alienation, suffering, stress, etc.

Fear of losing being alive.

Practice, Practice, Practice
User avatar
Dan74
Former staff member
Posts: 3403
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:59 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by Dan74 »

CedarTree wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
CedarTree wrote:
Haha you are awesome, :) I just feel we are missing out on a central dynamic here. I think you see it too, once you get to this point it makes sense why there is self, fear, stress. They arise almost from the omniscience of the mind knowing the reality of things. (I am going to far hah but important to make drive the point home to the hundreds viewing this thread so we can start defining an answer ;))
Hmm... I am lost. Why is there self, fear, stress? There are propelled forward by karmic momentum, like everything else. Habits of thought, feeling, perception, volition, etc. What am I missing?
Individual vantage point and the characteristic nature of awakeness. Death eliminating the individual vantage point of awakeness and thus subjective experience and this whole "mess" of things creates fear, distinction, divide, alienation, suffering, stress, etc.

Fear of losing being alive.
Ah... fear of death, you mean. Well, we don't know what exactly death eliminates and what not, but it definitely changes a lot of things and this is full-on. Fear of not managing to finish any of the things I care about is more my thing than death. It seems to me a life well lived is a good cure for fear of death. No?

There's also this clip by Krishnamurti, not a favourite on this forum, but I like a lot of what the guy had to say.
phpBB [video]
This is the simplest and shortest thing he said on the subject, he talked a lot about death.
User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by CedarTree »

Just speaking for myself I like the nature of being alive, even with the stress and suffering. With the type of life I have I would like to keep being alive rather than cease living.

The good life doesn't cure the fear for me or make my brain drop self/other, alienation, fear, and striving to protect these conditions and a sense of self and the alive/vantage point that comes with it & with all that happens on this world it would seem it doesn't cure for a lot of people and other species...

Practice, Practice, Practice
User avatar
Dan74
Former staff member
Posts: 3403
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:59 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by Dan74 »

Why are you here, then? Why do you practice??

I mean in practice one sometimes come to a point where things are pretty breezy, old neuroses have fallen by the wayside and life's groovy. Then one stops practicing. If one's lucky, life brings one down with a big thud and it's back to the drawing board. Maybe that's where you are at? I am not sure.
Last edited by Dan74 on Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by CedarTree »

Dan74 wrote:Why are you here, then? Why do you practice??
In a very honest way, I know and don't know.

Practice, Practice, Practice
User avatar
Dan74
Former staff member
Posts: 3403
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:59 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by Dan74 »

Maybe that's the real question then. Motivation is everything.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by Queequeg »

The fear... Ive heard it described... Can't remember the language used, but my take on it is its the defensive impulse on experiencing the awesome liberation. We recoil from it thinking it's our doom... Its first at the subtlest level and concatenates into samsara.

Like those science experiments where the solution crystallizes on the subtlest agitation.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by CedarTree »

Queequeg wrote:The fear... Ive heard it described... Can't remember the language used, but my take on it is its the defensive impulse on experiencing the awesome liberation. We recoil from it thinking it's our doom... Its first at the subtlest level and concatenates into samsara.

Like those science experiments where the solution crystallizes on the subtlest agitation.
I have had two experiences. One very similar to this were it felt like a radical step was being taken and it was absolutely terrifying. (I turned away from it)

The other was a experience I think in not such a deep meditation state were it felt like just bags of weights were taken off my shoulder and there was a sort of non-duality experience. There was no self and dependent origination was clearly understood.

This one was near utter weightlessness and bliss. It was hard to describe but I do remember thinking "Oh my god what I thought was just the feeling of being alive isn't being alive it's utter weight on the shoulders". Like there is this massive weight on our shoulders which we don't even really know until it's gone. It's just so prevalent.

However I realized that with truly no self (Although I am sure there was still some sense of self hiding hah) I realized that our minds naturally create self/other, alienation because the fear of death. That death was a radical change like anything else but that the sense of continuity may disappear and this vantage point may disappear and there was no insight to dispel this. Then self slowly started to come back in a very subtle way and suffering until that experience was nothing but a distant and foggy memory a few days later.

Practice, Practice, Practice
User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by CedarTree »

I think without addressing the vantage point of the individual and what "self" and "other" are even if just conceptually arisen doesn't do justice and doesn't allow for fear to truly be displaced.

There is a profound reason they are here and use Buddhist hot terms doesn't really do justice to this very real lived experience.

Practice, Practice, Practice
User avatar
Dan74
Former staff member
Posts: 3403
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:59 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by Dan74 »

Of course there is the fear - 'jumping off a hundred-foot pole' and all that. It's the unknown, it's a death for certain. Even psychedelic experiences can be similar (not recommending psychedelics, BTW). But the fear is misplaced. It is the delusion's fear of falling by the wayside, like when you have learned to mistake the parasite's voice for your own and prior to dislodging it, it cries out and you are gripped by fear, because you have identified with it. The battered wife's fear of losing her abusing husband. The devil we know.

How do you envisage this 'addressing'? The self and other become a flow of love and something deepened and clarified over years of practice after the initial 'entry'.

As for your second point, no, once it's really seen through and followed by thorough practice, I believe it won't be back. That's what all the masters tell us. And based on little experience that I've had and the teachings I've received I believe it. Many have tiny glimpses and mistake them for the real deal. It isn't. Deep dropping off is profound and permanently transformative. But needs to be followed up by vigourous practice.
Last edited by Dan74 on Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by CedarTree »

Dan74 wrote:Of course there is the fear - 'jumping off a hundred-foot pole' and all that. It's the unknown, it's a death for certain. Even psychedelic experiences can be similar (not recommending psychedelics, BTW). But the fear is misplaced. It is the delusion's fear of falling by the wayside, like when you have learned to mistake the parasite's voice for your own and prior to dislodging it, it cries own and you are gripped by fear, because you have identified with it. The battered wife's fear of losing her abusing husband. The devil we know.

How do you envisage this 'addressing'? The self and other become a flow of love and something deepened and clarified over years of practice after the initial 'entry'.

As for your second point, no, once it's really seen through and followed by thorough practice, I believe it won't be back. That's what all the masters tell us. And based on little experience that I've had and the teachings I've received I believe it. Many have tiny glimpses and mistake them for the real deal. It isn't. Deep dropping off is profound and permanently transformative. But needs to be followed up by vigourous practice.
I would agree 100+% with this. I guess I just feel we need to develop the teaching on how it isn't what we think it is. Rather than leave that silent.

Though that may be impossible?

Practice, Practice, Practice
User avatar
Dan74
Former staff member
Posts: 3403
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:59 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by Dan74 »

I dunno. I think we already have our heads full. More teachings? Talk to your teacher. Or go to another one. Here there are hardly any Zen people and I am just a lazy mongrel who's just as lost as you. So...

Zen practice is very simple and very demanding. Moment by moment.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by Queequeg »

At one point I thought eradicating that fearful resistance was the right way. But it seemed indestructible, like the tighter I squeezed the harder it became. I tried to sneak up on it - release and suddenly pounce, it just met me with the same force.

I've come around to just letting go. At times I succeed for an instant but immediately become self conscious of the accomplishment and crash back.

This is where I've come to appreciate nembutsu type practice. If you know me, you know my practice is not nembutsu per se, though it's a variation. In the process of doing something else, the real effect comes about. While scrubbing toilets, I get lured out of the burning house, so to speak, mixing parables...
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by CedarTree »

Queequeg wrote:At one point I thought eradicating that fearful resistance was the right way. But it seemed indestructible, like the tighter I squeezed the harder it became. I tried to sneak up on it - release and suddenly pounce, it just met me with the same force.

I've come around to just letting go. At times I succeed for an instant but immediately become self conscious of the accomplishment and crash back.

This is where I've come to appreciate nembutsu type practice. If you know me, you know my practice is not nembutsu per se, though it's a variation. In the process of doing something else, the real effect comes about. While scrubbing toilets, I get lured out of the burning house, so to speak, mixing parables...
And I think that may be it. Maybe this particular answer isn't one that has been codified or that language gets at.

I have a feeling if Malcolm ever chimes in he will have some Tantra that talks about this or some deep Mahayana teaching that we are missing. Astus is pretty knowledgeable with the Sutras as well so maybe there something ;)

Anyway I guess I echo what you are both saying. I just feel this dimension of the teaching is important. Same coin one side is Anatta the other Individual?

Practice, Practice, Practice
User avatar
Matt J
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:29 am
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Individuality, Nonduality, Anatta, Nirvana

Post by Matt J »

What do you mean? Not sure I follow.
CedarTree wrote: Maybe you and some other members could chime in on how they view an "Individual Mind-stream" functioning in this system.

I would be interested to hear see this developed :)
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”