Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

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Adamantine
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Adamantine » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:04 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:53 pm



Now, now, guys, I'm just fooling around.
I never would suspect anything less! Though it appeared as if a tiny bit of sincerity may have crept into your last post...


:smile:
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Malcolm
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:34 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:53 pm
the Dharma. :anjali:
Something it seems you have little interest in discussing, most of the time.
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:34 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:53 pm
the Dharma. :anjali:
Something it seems you have little interest in discussing, most of the time.


Actually, I have a great interest in discussing the Dharma and regularly do so but I came to the conclusion long ago that it is essentially impossible on internet forums.


Adamantine wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:04 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:53 pm
Now, now, guys, I'm just fooling around.
I never would suspect anything less! Though it appeared as if a tiny bit of sincerity may have crept into your last post...


:smile:


I see what you did there. :smile:
It takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation. - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:11 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:02 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:34 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:53 pm
the Dharma. :anjali:
Something it seems you have little interest in discussing, most of the time.


Actually, I have a great interest in discussing the Dharma and regularly do so but I came to the conclusion long ago that it is essentially impossible on internet forums.
Oh, so now you admit you are merely a troll.
Atikosha
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


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Adamantine
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Adamantine » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:12 pm



With respect to the idea of an awakened master transferring their "mind" (thugs) to a disciple, this is a form of blessing. It does not mean that now the student has all the teachers thoughts and knowledge, memories, experiences, and so on.
Well.. a funny claim of that happened here and is an obvious distortion, but they refer to it as an example of drong juk...
is that the official Tibetan term for transferring thugs to a disciple or it a related but different phenomenon they're referencing?

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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by makewhisper » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:31 pm
Also, sentient beings cannot be reborn as non-sentient beings such plants.
Malcolm, I'm approaching this question of mine from a place of genuine curiosity rather than a need to contradict or debate. I recall a recent(?) topic in which you appeared to argue the possibility of plant sentience with reference to a text that recounts an encounter with the deva "inhabiting" a tree. I believe that you or someone else made the argument that the deva could have even a personification of the tree's hypothetical mind. How does the discussion in that topic square with this statement of yours I'm quoting? Have your views evolved, or did you never hold the opinion that plants are sentient? Thanks for your time!

Dharma blessings,

Eric
ༀ་ཨཱཿ་ཧཱུྃ
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Om Ah Hung

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:11 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:02 pm
Actually, I have a great interest in discussing the Dharma and regularly do so but I came to the conclusion long ago that it is essentially impossible on internet forums.
Oh, so now you admit you are merely a troll.

Not at all, I prefer to think of myself as something more like the conscience of DW. However, since this is all meta-discussion, perhaps we should leave it at that.


:focus:
It takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation. - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by ItsRaining » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:18 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:05 am
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:27 am
it's actually not that uncommon a teaching..look up hun and po

Yes, if you have a look through Ven. Hsuan Hua's commentary on the Shurangama Sutra you will find him discussing three spiritual and seven physical souls that reside in the body which, if I am not mistaken, are none other than the hun and po.
See e.g. http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama8/shurangama8_3.asp
I found it strange he mentioned things such as these, I feel like it was upaya in a particular setting or audience. His commentaries on other texts were fairly orthodox and Master Xuan Hua clearly understands the Buddhist teachings on mind as he has a good commentary on the "Verses of the Eight Consciousnesses" by the Yogacara master Xuan Zang.

http://www.cttbusa.org/8consciousnesses/contents.asp

ItsRaining
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by ItsRaining » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:19 am

Adamantine wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:57 am
So then this must be something that's crept into Chinese Buddhism
from Taoism?
I've read the works of a lot of Chinese Buddhist masters past and present, this is the only time I've seen hun po or "souls" fragmenting mentioned.

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Malcolm
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:48 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:12 pm



With respect to the idea of an awakened master transferring their "mind" (thugs) to a disciple, this is a form of blessing. It does not mean that now the student has all the teachers thoughts and knowledge, memories, experiences, and so on.
Well.. a funny claim of that happened here and is an obvious distortion, but they refer to it as an example of drong juk...
is that the official Tibetan term for transferring thugs to a disciple or it a related but different phenomenon they're referencing?

https://www.domogeshetruth.com
Drong juk (grong 'jug) refers to transferring one's consciousness into a recently deceased corpse.
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Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Malcolm
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:51 pm

makewhisper wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:40 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:31 pm
Also, sentient beings cannot be reborn as non-sentient beings such plants.
Malcolm, I'm approaching this question of mine from a place of genuine curiosity rather than a need to contradict or debate. I recall a recent(?) topic in which you appeared to argue the possibility of plant sentience with reference to a text that recounts an encounter with the deva "inhabiting" a tree. I believe that you or someone else made the argument that the deva could have even a personification of the tree's hypothetical mind. How does the discussion in that topic square with this statement of yours I'm quoting? Have your views evolved, or did you never hold the opinion that plants are sentient? Thanks for your time!

Dharma blessings,

Eric
Hi Eric:

Yes, I have entertained the idea of plant sentience because like any living thing, they have life force (prāṇa) and they breath. But I make a clear distinction between my speculative inquiry and what is actually taught in Buddhadharma,

Classical Buddhist doctrine, including Dzogchen does not admit to such an idea; apart from some trends of Sino-Japanese Buddhism.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Malcolm
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:51 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:48 pm
Not at all, I prefer to think of myself as something more like the conscience of DW. However, since this is all meta-discussion, perhaps we should leave it at that.
How modest of you.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:12 pm
With respect to the idea of an awakened master transferring their "mind" (thugs) to a disciple, this is a form of blessing.
Is this at all related to Dechö practices, like Lama Chöpa?

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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by ydnan321 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:08 am

Are you saying he actually saw the fragmentation of soul into multiple beings? Wouldn't that contradict the Buddha's teaching - one mindstream carrying its own karma?
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:19 am
ydnan321 wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:49 am
So, Master Hsuan Hua 'borrowed' this teaching from Taoism? No wonder it sounds so strange. I actually thought he personally experienced this with his Five Eyes spiritual penetration...
He probably did. That is how these things come to be known to ordinary beings.

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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by ydnan321 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:13 am

I actually saw several of his lectures with this same teaching about soul fragmentation and defragmentation. There was mention that this is a common teaching in Chinese Buddhism? Wonder besides Master Hsuan Hua, who else has taught this?
ItsRaining wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:18 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:05 am
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:27 am
it's actually not that uncommon a teaching..look up hun and po

Yes, if you have a look through Ven. Hsuan Hua's commentary on the Shurangama Sutra you will find him discussing three spiritual and seven physical souls that reside in the body which, if I am not mistaken, are none other than the hun and po.
See e.g. http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama8/shurangama8_3.asp
I found it strange he mentioned things such as these, I feel like it was upaya in a particular setting or audience. His commentaries on other texts were fairly orthodox and Master Xuan Hua clearly understands the Buddhist teachings on mind as he has a good commentary on the "Verses of the Eight Consciousnesses" by the Yogacara master Xuan Zang.

http://www.cttbusa.org/8consciousnesses/contents.asp

ItsRaining
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by ItsRaining » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:20 am

ydnan321 wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:13 am
I actually saw several of his lectures with this same teaching about soul fragmentation and defragmentation. There was mention that this is a common teaching in Chinese Buddhism? Wonder besides Master Hsuan Hua, who else has taught this?
ItsRaining wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:18 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:05 am



Yes, if you have a look through Ven. Hsuan Hua's commentary on the Shurangama Sutra you will find him discussing three spiritual and seven physical souls that reside in the body which, if I am not mistaken, are none other than the hun and po.
See e.g. http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama8/shurangama8_3.asp
I found it strange he mentioned things such as these, I feel like it was upaya in a particular setting or audience. His commentaries on other texts were fairly orthodox and Master Xuan Hua clearly understands the Buddhist teachings on mind as he has a good commentary on the "Verses of the Eight Consciousnesses" by the Yogacara master Xuan Zang.

http://www.cttbusa.org/8consciousnesses/contents.asp
Literally never seen any Chinese Dharma Masters teach this besides in this instance. Definitely not canon or common.

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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Matt J » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:53 pm

I wonder how the multiple tulku phenomenon fits into the discussion. I've heard of body, speech, and mind tulkus, and in fact it was a plot point in Little Buddha. I attached a screen shot from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche's Blazing Splendor and Tulku Thondop's Incarnation. I found this from HHDL:
Usually a reincarnation has to be someone’s taking rebirth as a human being after previously passing away. Ordinary sentient beings generally cannot manifest an emanation before death (ma-dhey tulku), but superior Bodhisattvas, who can manifest themselves in hundreds or thousands of bodies simultaneously, can manifest an emanation before death. Within the Tibetan system of recognizing Tulkus there are emanations who belong to the same mind-stream as the predecessor, emanations who are connected to others through the power of karma and prayers, and emanations who come as a result of blessings and appointment.

The main purpose of the appearance of a reincarnation is to continue the predecessor’s unfinished work to serve Dharma and beings. In the case of a Lama who is an ordinary being, instead of having a reincarnation belonging to the same mind-stream, someone else with connections to that Lama through pure karma and prayers may be recognized as his or her emanation. Alternatively it is possible for the Lama to appoint a successor who is either his disciple or someone young who is to be recognized as his emanation. Since these options are possible in the case of an ordinary being, an emanation before death that is not of the same mind-stream is feasible. In some cases one high Lama may have several reincarnations simultaneously, such as incarnations of body, speech and mind and so on. In recent times, there have been well-known emanations before death such as Dudjom Jigdral Yeshe Dorje and Chogye Trichen Ngawang Khyenrab.
https://www.dalailama.com/messages/ret ... ncarnation
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Malcolm
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:59 pm

Matt J wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:53 pm
I wonder how the multiple tulku phenomenon fits into the discussion.
There is no canonical basis for the idea of reincarnations of body, speech, mind, etc.

That said, there is canonical basis for bodhisattvas having exponentially more emanations from the first bhumi one ward which increase by powers of ten, thus a tenth stage bodhisattva can have 100,000,000,000,000,000,000, i.e. one hundred septillion emanations.

And every Buddha has an emanation in every world in a given billion-world universe (1000 to the third power).
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by ydnan321 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:53 pm

So, I found this story about a frog being immediately born in heaven upon being killed while attentively listen to the Buddha's teaching. The frog did not have to be de-fragmented/integrated with his other 'souls' for this particular rebirth.

http://vipassanameditation-vipassana.blogspot.co.uk/
At one time while the Blessed One was teaching the Bhamma to the inhabitants of the City of Campa, on the Banks of the Gaggara Lake, a Frog, listening to the discourse, developed great wholesome consciousness while listening to the Lore doped great wholesome consciousness while listening to the Load Buddha’s voice. At that moment a cowherd leaned against his staff, which happened to crush the frog’s head and the frog was immediately reborn in the Heaven of the 33 Deities, inside of a celestial palace (Vimana), as if awakening from a dream.
Thinking to himself, ‘So now I am here? What deed did I do?’
He realized that the had been reborn in the Tavatimsa heaven as the result of his pure mind in the moment of listening to the Lord Buddha’s Discourse.
He departed with his diving palace at once to the Blessed One and worshipped at his feet. Although the Lord knew all about it, he asked him:
‘Who now pays homage at my feet,
Shining with glory and success,
Illumination all around
With beauty so outstanding?”

‘In my last life I was a frog’
The waters of a pond my home;
A cowherd’s staff ended my life
While listening to your Dhamma.’

ydnan321
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by ydnan321 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:17 pm

ydnan321 wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:53 pm
So, I found this story about a frog being immediately born in heaven upon being killed while attentively listened to the Buddha's teaching. The frog did not have to be de-fragmented/integrated with his so-called other 'souls' for this particular rebirth.

http://vipassanameditation-vipassana.blogspot.co.uk/
At one time while the Blessed One was teaching the Bhamma to the inhabitants of the City of Campa, on the Banks of the Gaggara Lake, a Frog, listening to the discourse, developed great wholesome consciousness while listening to the Lore doped great wholesome consciousness while listening to the Load Buddha’s voice. At that moment a cowherd leaned against his staff, which happened to crush the frog’s head and the frog was immediately reborn in the Heaven of the 33 Deities, inside of a celestial palace (Vimana), as if awakening from a dream.
Thinking to himself, ‘So now I am here? What deed did I do?’
He realized that the had been reborn in the Tavatimsa heaven as the result of his pure mind in the moment of listening to the Lord Buddha’s Discourse.
He departed with his diving palace at once to the Blessed One and worshipped at his feet. Although the Lord knew all about it, he asked him:
‘Who now pays homage at my feet,
Shining with glory and success,
Illumination all around
With beauty so outstanding?”

‘In my last life I was a frog’
The waters of a pond my home;
A cowherd’s staff ended my life
While listening to your Dhamma.’

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