Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

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tingdzin
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by tingdzin »

To 48 vows:

Sorry for my tardy reply; I'm only occasionally online.

#2 (of your questions in reply to my post)
"Soul" is bad word to use on an English-language Buddhist site because: a) It is ridiculously inexact, and has very different meanings for different people. To a lot of English (and other European language) speakers, it means some kind of non-material spiritual identity which mirrors a human personality. This is of course completely non-Buddhistic. Others think a "soul" is by definition not something transient -- this is also un-Buddhistic. b) A lot of (native) English-speaking Buddhists also object to it because it's too redolent of Christianity.

I guess if a Chinese Buddhist master wants to use hun and po in a Dharma talk, there are circumstances in which it might not be too much out of order, but he should not use "soul" as a translation; this is just confusing and IMO intellectually sloppy.

I agree with your suggestion that alternate translations for hun and po ought to be proposed, defended, and taken up or rejected.

The presence of these two words in a Chinese sutra is probably evidence of Chinese provenance. I know of no words in Indic or Central Asian languages that could have served as the root for such translations.

#3) Tibetan bla is a word which has also been translated as "soul" because of intellectual laziness. Really it is more like a certain vital capacity that enables humans to function as humans, and it has no independent sentient existence, like the English-language "soul" does.
ydnan321
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by ydnan321 »

Also, regarding comments that human could reincarnate at plants, didn't the Abhidharma state that plants are insentient beings? [urlhttps://books.google.com/books?id=i1ffdTIbNJkC&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=abhidharma+plants+sentient&source=bl&ots=E_Rpp-r6ZE&sig=4eHEASp670_3rhn37WHeiJLMDao&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj86pG8j-rWAhXLrlQKHZ9-AaAQ6AEIQjAF#v=onepage&q&f=true][/url]
Also, the Buddha only classified 6 paths of rebirth: heaven, asura, human, animal, hungry ghost, and hell.
ydnan321
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by ydnan321 »

Interestingly, when teaching the Shurangama Sutra, Master Hsuan Hua's seemed to agree that plants are insentient? And that people cannot be born as plants?

http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... :_Volume_8
Sutra:

Based on his idea that there is universal awareness, he formulates a theory that all the plants in the ten directions are sentient, not different from human beings. He claims that plants can become people, and that when people die they again become plants in the ten directions. If he considers this idea of unrestricted, universal awareness to be supreme, he will fall into the error of maintaining that what is not aware has awareness. Vasishtha and Sainika, who maintained the idea of comprehensive awareness, will become his companions. Confused about the Bodhi of the Buddhas, he will lose his knowledge and understanding.

Commentary:

Based on his idea that there is universal awareness, he formulates a theory. He deduces, from what he knows, that there is a universal awareness, and then formulates a view about it. What is his view? You'd never guess, and neither would I. He says that all the plants in the ten directions are sentient. In China, there is a saying,

"People are not plants; who can be without emotion?"

That statement implies that plants are insentient. But here the cultivator has decided that all plants are sentient not different from human beings. They are the same as people in that they also have life. He claims that plants can become people, and that when people die they again become plants in the ten directions. After death, humans turn back into plants.


If he considers this idea of unrestricted, universal awareness to be supreme. He doesn't have the wisdom to selectively apply this theory of universal awareness. He tries to be special and mistakenly thinks his idea is a supreme one. He will fall into the error of maintaining that what is not aware has awareness. He claims to understand this principle, but actually he is ignorant. He does not understand, but insists that he does.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

I've never heard of a person being reborn as a plant , have you?
ydnan321
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by ydnan321 »

Well, if you look at the OP, looks like the Master did say that, though when teaching the Shurangama Sutra, he refuted such belief. Not sure when the commentary to the Shurangama Sutra was done, but the Root Farm's one was in 1975. Did he change his mind?

[/quote]
Fortyeightvows wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:33 am I've never heard of a person being reborn as a plant , have you?
The Venerable Master Hsuan-Hua comments:
Question: "When you eat one bowl of rice, you take the life of all the grains of rice, whereas eating meat you take only one animal's life.
The Master: On the body of one single animal are a hundred thousand, in fact, sever million little organisms. These organisms are fragments of what was once an animal. The soul of a human being at death may split up to become many animals. One person can become about ten animals. That's why animals are so stupid. The soul of an animal can split up and become, in its smallest division, an organism or plant. The feelings which plants have, then, are what separated from the animals's soul when it split up at death. Although the life force of a large number of plants may appear sizeable, it is not as great as that of a single animal or a single mouthful of meat. Take, for example, rice: tens of billions of grains of rice do not contain as much life force as a single piece of meat. If you open your Five Eyes you can know this at a glance. If you haven't opened your eyes, no matter how one tries to explain it to you, you won't understand. No matter how it's explained, you won't believe it, because you haven't been a plant!
"Another example is the mosquitoes. The millions of mosquitoes on this mountain may be simply the soul of one person who has been transformed into all those bugs. It is not the case that a single human soul turns into a single mosquito. One person can turn into countless numbers of mosquitos.

"At death the nature changes, the soul scatters, and its smallest fragments become plants. Thus, there is a difference between eating plants and eating animals. What is more, plants have very short lifespans. The grass, for example, is born in the spring and dies within months. Animals live a long time. If you don't kill them, they will live for many years. Rice, regardless of conditions, will only live a short time. And so, if you really look into it, there are many factors to consider, and even science hasn't got it all straight." (Buddha Root Farm, 64)


In his sutra teaching though, he mentioned:
http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama8/shurangama8_24.asp
Thus he is sowing the seeds of a distorted view of awareness, an upside-down understanding. Take plants, nobody would regard them as sentient beings, yet he does just that. He says that people are just plants, and that plants can also become people. Someone suggests, "But there are trees endowed with souls. Doesn't that mean they have awareness?"

No. In such cases, there is a spirit inhabiting the tree. It's not that the tree itself has awareness and is a sentient being.[/
quote]
ydnan321
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by ydnan321 »

I still have doubt in my mind regarding Hsuan Hua’s remarks regarding multiplicity of animal’s rebirth. Though I do not believe such statements, they still linger and bother me. Seems like his impact is strong. I would need some sort of credible source to firm up my belief. Therefore, I am looking for sutra references to disregard such claim. Anyone knows of any sutras or authentic masters’ writings mentioning rebirth accounts specifying that one human is reborn as one animal, or vice versa? Or if there are reliable treatises that explain of such rebirth law/physics, specifically denying such multiplicity claim.

Thanks,

YN
Malcolm
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Malcolm »

ydnan321 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:04 pm I still have doubt in my mind regarding Hsuan Hua’s remarks regarding multiplicity of animal’s rebirth. Though I do not believe such statements, they still linger and bother me. Seems like his impact is strong. I would need some sort of credible source to firm up my belief. Therefore, I am looking for sutra references to disregard such claim. Anyone knows of any sutras or authentic masters’ writings mentioning rebirth accounts specifying that one human is reborn as one animal, or vice versa? Or if there are reliable treatises that explain of such rebirth law/physics, specifically denying such multiplicity claim.

Thanks,

YN
Dharmakiriti makes strong arguments defending the idea that mind streams are separate and unique.
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Maybe we shouldn't be taking these various 'soul aggregates' or whatever they are, of possibly apocryphal Chinese origin, but not necessarily a wrong concept in-and-of-themselves, as mindstreams then.

We know that after death, our bodies' nutrients are ultimately recycled, the components breaking down, and 'becoming' other things. It strikes me as potentially reasonable that something similar could be being alluded to here, without necessarily meaning that mindstreams can split and re-assemble. But perhaps I am being too naively generous.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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ThreeVows
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by ThreeVows »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:57 pm Dharmakiriti makes strong arguments defending the idea that mind streams are separate and unique.
Any specific sources? Or more broadly, any recommendations regarding Dharmakirti at all?

I haven't gotten around to looking into Dharmakirti really yet but it's on my to-do list, at some point. That list is somewhat long though.

Thanks
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:46 pmWe
know that after death, our bodies' nutrients are ultimately recycled, the components breaking down, and 'becoming' other things. It strikes me as potentially reasonable that something similar could be being alluded to here, without necessarily meaning that mindstreams can split and re-assemble.
For example, master chin kung comares it to how the eight consciousneses leave the body at death.

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Does the Śūraṅgamasūtra reference specifically 三魂七魄 or only 魂魄?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:05 pm Does the Śūraṅgamasūtra reference specifically 三魂七魄 or only 魂魄?
三魂七魄 is unambiguously Daoism. It "can" work with Buddhism, IMO, as it has for many hundred years. But it is going to need some adaption. Just like 大乘起信論 ("Mahāyāna Waking of Śraddhā Śāstra") had to be adapted to fit into Tiāntāi.

魂魄, though, from scroll 9, may well simply be a colloquialism.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
ydnan321
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by ydnan321 »

Sorry, I’m still stuck on this, would be grateful if anyone could provide explanation stating why multiplicity of animal rebirths is not possible using scripture or well-known master’s accounts/references? Links would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

YN
Malcolm
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Malcolm »

ydnan321 wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:05 am Sorry, I’m still stuck on this, would be grateful if anyone could provide explanation stating why multiplicity of animal rebirths is not possible using scripture or well-known master’s accounts/references? Links would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

YN
It is not possible. If you would do your own research, you will come to this conclusion and will have no further doubt about.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:07 am It is not possible. If you would do your own research, you will come to this conclusion and will have no further doubt about.
so what happens with earthworms? or twins?
Simon E.
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Simon E. »

Twins ( and earthworms ) are entirely separate individuals. Even identical twins have major differences in temperament and sometimes in ability.
As to earthworms I wonder whether you are referring to the myth that if cut in half they grow a new half..?
If so it IS a myth. The back end always dies quickly because it has no mouthparts.
The front half sometimes survives for a while if the wound heals successfully..but usually also dies quickly.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by dzogchungpa »

Simon E. wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:29 pmAs to earthworms I wonder whether you are referring to the myth that if cut in half they grow a new half..?
If so it IS a myth. The back end always dies quickly because it has no mouthparts.
The front half sometimes survives for a while if the wound heals successfully..but usually also dies quickly.

However it appears that planaria do indeed have this property.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by DNS »

The idea of fragmented souls comes from Hinduism and I believe also Jainism; not sure about Taoism.
ydnan321 wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:28 pm In some other articles I read, he mentioned that these fragmented souls would need to join together again to take rebirth at a higher forms (e.g. multiple roosters' souls need to be integrated together to reborn as a horse, then multiple horse's souls then integrate to be a human.)
How would the mechanics of karma make that even work? The different animals that need to combine don't die at the same time. And then each animal accumulates his/her own karma and karmic results. The individual mind streams of Buddhism make more sense.

The Buddhist suttas/sutras always refer to individuals, with the Buddha mentioning things like: this monk went to this realm; this nun went to that realm; this butcher was reborn to this woeful existence, etc etc.
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by DNS »

dzogchungpa wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:58 pm However it appears that planaria do indeed have this property.
That is interesting. And then there is the case of a cloned animal. Since mammals have already been cloned, I'm fairly certain humans could be cloned too. My guess is that the split worms and cloned animals would "inherit" the karma of the donor. I don't believe that would be soul fragmentation, because each new sentient being would then proceed with his/her own karmic decisions and accumulation from that point.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Soul fragmentation and defragmentation as Buddism teaching?

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Simon E. wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:29 pm Twins ( and earthworms ) are entirely separate individuals. Even identical twins have major differences in temperament and sometimes in ability.
As to earthworms I wonder whether you are referring to the myth that if cut in half they grow a new half..?
If so it IS a myth. The back end always dies quickly because it has no mouthparts.
The front half sometimes survives for a while if the wound heals successfully..but usually also dies quickly.
I didn't know it was am myth, thanks.
But in the case of twins, they do split after conception, so....
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