What would Buddha have thought of Mahayana?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Malcolm
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Re: What would Buddha have thought of Mahayana?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:10 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:08 pm
It is not necessary to believe that nagas exist in order to realize the true nature of one's mind.
Who said you had to believe in Nāgās? I mean, if you don't you are more likely to disturb them and cause problems for yourself and others, but you are not required to believe in them.

As a Dharma practitioner, however, you will never realize the true nature of your mind if you negate rebirth and karma.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Virgo
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Re: What would Buddha have thought of Mahayana?

Post by Virgo » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:10 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:08 pm
It is not necessary to believe that nagas exist in order to realize the true nature of one's mind.
if you don't you are more likely to disturb them and cause problems for yourself and others, but you are not required to believe in them.
Disturb them by unkowingly doing an action that would disturb them -since you do not understand them - not disturb them because they beome mad that you don't believe they exist.

Sorry to be a nuisance but some people might have read that the wrong way.

Back to the games.

Kevin
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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: What would Buddha have thought of Mahayana?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:27 pm

That's a great point Kevin! Especially in a belief obsessed culture, that sort of thing can become an obstacle. In a tangentially related way, buddhas and bodhisattvas do not pop into and out of existence because of some shifting opinion of ours. Nor is their ego hurt because they don't have any. What does happen is a relationship with them is hindered.

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Re: What would Buddha have thought of Mahayana?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:23 pm

I think, the reason why people do not believe in rebirth and karma, why secular people do, is because they don't really understand what they are.
They only have a pop culture understanding, for example, that the universe is busy rewarding and punishing people, or that the salt, fat, water and amino acids in the brain can somehow experience their own activity.
karma and rebirth do not actually have to be accepted on mere say-so or on faith alone. they can be determined by logical deduction.
In referring to nagas, or ghosts or whatever, they cannot be determined by deduction.
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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: What would Buddha have thought of Mahayana?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:28 pm

If rebirth can be determined, why can't other realms and types of beings?

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Malcolm
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Re: What would Buddha have thought of Mahayana?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:52 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:23 pm

In referring to nagas, or ghosts or whatever, they cannot be determined by deduction.
Sure they can. Deductions always depend on what assumptions one holds.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
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Re: What would Buddha have thought of Mahayana?

Post by smcj » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:12 am

As a Dharma practitioner, however, you will never realize the true nature of your mind if you negate rebirth and karma...
...because if you do you will by necessity be reaffirming your commitment to your own oattachments (to this life) and to your own delusions (present understandings and opinions). Those attachments and delusions in turn preclude realization.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: What would Buddha have thought of Mahayana?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:34 am

Please determine the existence of nagas or of hungry ghost realms using logical deduction.
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Malcolm
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Re: What would Buddha have thought of Mahayana?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:02 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:34 am
Please determine the existence of nagas or of hungry ghost realms using logical deduction.
The Buddha spokes of them, therefore, we can deduce they exist.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: What would Buddha have thought of Mahayana?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:09 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:34 am
Please determine the existence of nagas or of hungry ghost realms using logical deduction.
If you're willing to suspend focusing on the specifics of language and culture, it's pretty simple in my opinion:

Imagine the most angry moment (hell etc.) in your life, the most thirsty (preta etc.), the most exalted (Dewa), and now ask yourself if your own experience of those states defines the real limitations of them. If you allow for the possibility or likelihood that there are similar states and agencies outside of your perception that go "beyond" what you experienced, then the only particularly unusual thing about the idea of the six realms it's it's cultural specifics.
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Re: What would Buddha have thought of Mahayana?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:29 am

nichiren-123 wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:52 pm
So I'm trying to understand how the different teachings relate to each other. I started with tientai's 5 periods but quickly realised that it wasn't historically accurate.
Realizing that the Mahayana doctrines aren't the words of the literal Buddha but later innovations, I wonder what the real Buddha, Sakyamuni would have thought about the Mahayana sutras? Do they hold true to the Buddha's meaning or would he have thought of them as wrong? What do you guys think?
originally the buddha's boddhisattva training was meant to be spread among boddhisatvas of various levels and some devas in the deva's realm, and not to humans because buddhadharma was new t them and their attitude primitive.

however, the fact is that hinayana is much more understandable from the mahayana, otherwise ¿why would buddha bother in educate stubborn people?

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Re: What would Buddha have thought of Mahayana?

Post by Anonymous X » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:07 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:52 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:23 pm

In referring to nagas, or ghosts or whatever, they cannot be determined by deduction.
Sure they can. Deductions always depend on what assumptions one holds.
Sometimes, one holds wrong assumptions. Deductions are a necessary human function, it seems, but they are not very precise. It is easy to see how a deduction can go astray.

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