Can buddha nature be proved?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
smcj
Posts: 5480
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by smcj » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:47 am

can Love be proved?
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
*****
Once in a while you can get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Robert Hunter

Anonymous X
Posts: 779
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:34 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:58 am
:jumping: Buddha nature cannot be proved, because it is empty of both existence and non-existence.
Yes, this is more to my understanding of the question. If it exists, it would be some kind of objective 'thing'. If it does not exist, there would be just void, nothingness. Both are views of a conditioned mind and are not to be used as any kind of reference point to base a definition on. Proving buddhanature is not a useful endeavor, ultimately, imo.

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by kirtu » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:42 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:45 pm
Iirc, the Lions Roar asks something like " if there were no Buddha nature, what would desire freedom from the afflictions"?
Which Dogen-zenji expanded upon by saying that the fact that beings spontaneously perform virtuous deeds and exhibit some compassion proves Buddha Nature.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by kirtu » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:44 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:58 am
:jumping: Buddha nature cannot be proved, because it is empty of both existence and non-existence.
As Shantideva said, where there is smoke there is fire. So if someone performs positive deeds for another or speaks of them affectionately then we can validly assume love.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

Aryjna
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by Aryjna » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:47 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:58 am
:jumping: Buddha nature cannot be proved, because it is empty of both existence and non-existence.
I don't think that is correct. After all, If existence and non-existence can be disproved by logic, then that is proof of buddha nature in a way.

User avatar
PuerAzaelis
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:42 pm

kirtu wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:44 pm
As Shantideva said, where there is smoke there is fire. So if someone performs positive deeds for another or speaks of them affectionately then we can validly assume love.

Kirt
People love Jesus too.
No place, no focus, no missing the point

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by kirtu » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:56 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:42 pm
kirtu wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:44 pm
As Shantideva said, where there is smoke there is fire. So if someone performs positive deeds for another or speaks of them affectionately then we can validly assume love.

Kirt
People love Jesus too.
Good. If they really love Jesus then they will love others as well. They can expand that love to encompass all beings and then develop compassion. And since they can love and are capable of developing compassion then they have Buddha Nature.

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 8672
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by DGA » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:58 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:58 am
:jumping: Buddha nature cannot be proved, because it is empty of both existence and non-existence.
kirtu wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:42 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:45 pm
Iirc, the Lions Roar asks something like " if there were no Buddha nature, what would desire freedom from the afflictions"?
Which Dogen-zenji expanded upon by saying that the fact that beings spontaneously perform virtuous deeds and exhibit some compassion proves Buddha Nature.

Kirt
And more broadly: if we admit that such a thing as "Buddha" is possible, then we also admit that the potential to become Buddha must be possible. That potential for awakening is called Buddha-nature.

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 5652
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by kirtu » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:01 pm

DGA wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:58 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:58 am
:jumping: Buddha nature cannot be proved, because it is empty of both existence and non-existence.
kirtu wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:42 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:45 pm
Iirc, the Lions Roar asks something like " if there were no Buddha nature, what would desire freedom from the afflictions"?
Which Dogen-zenji expanded upon by saying that the fact that beings spontaneously perform virtuous deeds and exhibit some compassion proves Buddha Nature.

Kirt
And more broadly: if we admit that such a thing as "Buddha" is possible, then we also admit that the potential to become Buddha must be possible. That potential for awakening is called Buddha-nature.
Of course. But there are some people who think that only certain beings can becomes Buddha. Which is why I started on the lovingkindness and compassion side.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

User avatar
PuerAzaelis
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:29 pm

kirtu wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:56 pm
If they really love Jesus then they will love others as well.
It’s a nice idea. Anyway Buddha nature is more than just the Brahma viharas.
No place, no focus, no missing the point

User avatar
Monlam Tharchin
Posts: 1539
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:11 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:07 pm

Yes but as Bokar Rinpoche said, anywhere there is love manifesting, that is Chenrezig, i.e. the naturally compassionate aspect of buddha-nature, even if the expression is for now distorted by delusion. Also important is sympathetic joy for any merit whatsoever that beings display.
Namo Amitābhāya

on hiatus since November 2017

Tolya M
Posts: 187
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:26 pm

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by Tolya M » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:59 pm

It can be proved, since objects of Buddhist discourse beyond the two extremes, but only Buddhas can see it directly. Or it can be partially proven from writings and conclusions. For example if there is upadana skandhas then Trikaya is possible.

Anonymous X
Posts: 779
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by Anonymous X » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:59 am

Tolya M wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:59 pm
It can be proved, since objects of Buddhist discourse beyond the two extremes, but only Buddhas can see it directly. Or it can be partially proven from writings and conclusions. For example if there is upadana skandhas then Trikaya is possible.
Proof is not metaphysical speculation or any kind of deduction. I don't think there is any need to prove Buddhanature.

White Lotus
Posts: 1096
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by White Lotus » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:48 pm

What you see or hear, taste and touch and feel right now is buddha nature. Some call it our mind, others the Tathagatta's Tathata. His nature and... Yes, it is as real as the nose on you'r face, but only if you are real. Tom. :namaste:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 4177
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:21 pm

No.

Only Buddhas can know Buddhanature.

Buddhas affirm it is real.

We proceed on faith in the Buddha.
“Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead certainty, even in the midst of chaos.”
-Henry Miller

"Language is the liquid that we're all dissolved in.
Great for solving problems, after it creates the problems."
-Modest Mouse

Tolya M
Posts: 187
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:26 pm

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by Tolya M » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:11 pm

Anonymous X wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:59 am
Tolya M wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:59 pm
It can be proved, since objects of Buddhist discourse beyond the two extremes, but only Buddhas can see it directly. Or it can be partially proven from writings and conclusions. For example if there is upadana skandhas then Trikaya is possible.
Proof is not metaphysical speculation or any kind of deduction. I don't think there is any need to prove Buddhanature.
Of course it is necessary to draw the right conclusion. For this there are sutras and innumerable sastras. Were they written because there is no need to prove buddhanature?

Anonymous X
Posts: 779
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by Anonymous X » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:00 am

Tolya M wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:11 pm
Anonymous X wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:59 am
Tolya M wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:59 pm
It can be proved, since objects of Buddhist discourse beyond the two extremes, but only Buddhas can see it directly. Or it can be partially proven from writings and conclusions. For example if there is upadana skandhas then Trikaya is possible.
Proof is not metaphysical speculation or any kind of deduction. I don't think there is any need to prove Buddhanature.
Of course it is necessary to draw the right conclusion. For this there are sutras and innumerable sastras. Were they written because there is no need to prove buddhanature?
When something is explained, such as Buddhanature, the explanation often is of what is talked about, what is named. If you want to equate an explanation with 'proof', go ahead. But this is not really proof as most people have come to understand as proof. The world was once thought of as flat. The 'proof' was to travel to the horizon and to discover that you did not fall off. Real proof, not deduction or speculation, can only be had by the direct experience of something. Since Buddhanature is not a thing, it cannot be proved to exist or not exist. It is of a different category that is often left alone as there are much more pressing matters such as greed, hatred, and such, to come to terms with. That's all I'm saying.

User avatar
PuerAzaelis
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:26 pm

Forget “proving” you cant even experience emptiness.

“I” experience emptiness? Lol.

So how could it be “proved”? Lol.
No place, no focus, no missing the point

User avatar
Monlam Tharchin
Posts: 1539
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:11 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:46 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:26 pm
Forget “proving” you cant even experience emptiness.

“I” experience emptiness? Lol.

So how could it be “proved”? Lol.
Sure you can :) Enlightenment (including recognition of emptiness) doesn't obliterate experience but is rather described as free, blissful, etc.

What can't be proven is a recognition of delusion and undeluded nature, because those both occur in one's own mind, not in a false external world as a thing.

Another reason: since awakening clears away the illusion of subject/object, to then establish emptiness of self (buddha-nature) as a self, i.e. a real and external proven thing for a deluded being to grasp while still deluded, would be a lie of sorts, leading only to further confusion and suffering.

Bokar Rinpoche in Lord of Love said, "the form grasped as object is nothing other than the manifestation of the clarity aspect of the mind while the I-subject is nothing other than the emptiness aspect of the same mind".
Namo Amitābhāya

on hiatus since November 2017

User avatar
PuerAzaelis
Posts: 635
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Can buddha nature be proved?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:29 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:46 pm
... awakening clears away the illusion of subject/object ...
Then how can you experience emptiness?
:sage:
No place, no focus, no missing the point

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 44 guests