Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

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csmorg96
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Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by csmorg96 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:56 am

How do followers of Mahayana sects reconcile the bodhisattva vow to continue taking rebirth with Shakyamuni's complete enlightenment?

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:29 am

Shakyamuni Buddha never took that vow AFAIK.

passel
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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by passel » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:45 am

Thomas- then what about the Jatakas, and all the places in the Pali canon where he talks about before was the Buddha and he calls himself the bodhisatta? That’s where the whole bodhisattva vow comes from

OP- because the Mahāyāna doesn’t equate buddhahood with cessation
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csmorg96
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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by csmorg96 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:11 am

passel wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:45 am
Thomas- then what about the Jatakas, and all the places in the Pali canon where he talks about before was the Buddha and he calls himself the bodhisatta? That’s where the whole bodhisattva vow comes from

OP- because the Mahāyāna doesn’t equate buddhahood with cessation
Ah, so what is the Mahayana conception of buddhahood?

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seeker242
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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by seeker242 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:04 am

By recognizing that complete enlightenment allows one to fulfill the bodhisattva vow to it's fullest.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by TharpaChodron » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:56 am

Once the Buddha became enlightened did "he" no longer identify with a personal self? Buddhas go beyond space and time and exist on a larger level.

I think it's no discrepancy to see the Buddha who has gone beyond and the multitude of Bodhisattvas who realize the same ultimate nature. In a very Christianesque way, Bodhisattvas are the angels and Buddha is the power underlying all of their motivation

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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by DGA » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:06 am

csmorg96 wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:56 am
How do followers of Mahayana sects reconcile the bodhisattva vow to continue taking rebirth with Shakyamuni's complete enlightenment?
I don't see the contradiction that you seem to see. Would you please explain what you mean by 1. the bodhisattva vow and 2. Shakyamuni's complete enlightenment?

csmorg96
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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by csmorg96 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:03 pm

My understanding is that a bodhisattva vows to continue suffering and taking rebirth in samsara until samsara has been emptied of all beings. My understanding of budhahood is that buddhas do not suffer anymore.

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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by Bristollad » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:12 pm

csmorg96 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:03 pm
My understanding is that a bodhisattva vows to continue suffering and taking rebirth in samsara until samsara has been emptied of all beings. My understanding of budhahood is that buddhas do not suffer anymore.
Who is more able to help suffering sentient beings, a bodhisattva or a fully enlightened buddha?

A bodhisattva vows to attain full enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings, because that is the best possible way to help sentient beings. It is said that at a certain point, a bodhisattva could, if they so wished, easily attain personal cessation of suffering but they do not, because this would delay their achievement of enlightenment and their ability to help others fully.

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:26 pm

passel wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:45 am
Thomas- then what about the Jatakas, and all the places in the Pali canon where he talks about before was the Buddha and he calls himself the bodhisatta? That’s where the whole bodhisattva vow comes from

OP- because the Mahāyāna doesn’t equate buddhahood with cessation
I think one can be a bodhisattva without taking a vow to delay their own attainment of Buddhahood. Buddhas continue to help sentient beings as long as space endures as well.

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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by DGA » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:44 pm

csmorg96 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:03 pm
My understanding is that a bodhisattva vows to continue suffering and taking rebirth in samsara until samsara has been emptied of all beings. My understanding of budhahood is that buddhas do not suffer anymore.
Was Shakyamuni a bodhisattva prior to becoming a Buddha?

How about other Buddhas, such as Amitabha?

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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by Virgo » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:59 pm

csmorg96 wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:56 am
How do followers of Mahayana sects reconcile the bodhisattva vow to continue taking rebirth with Shakyamuni's complete enlightenment?
Shakyamuni Rinpoche took the Kingly or King-like Bodhisattva vow.

Kevin

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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:29 pm

DGA wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:44 pm
csmorg96 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:03 pm
My understanding is that a bodhisattva vows to continue suffering and taking rebirth in samsara until samsara has been emptied of all beings. My understanding of budhahood is that buddhas do not suffer anymore.
Was Shakyamuni a bodhisattva prior to becoming a Buddha?

How about other Buddhas, such as Amitabha?
Amitabha was first a king, then a bhiksu named Dharmakara, then a bodhisattva, before realizing his famous 48 vows and establishing his pure land as a fully awakened buddha. The details of his career are found in the Larger Amitabha Sutta starting under the heading "Lokeshvararaja Buddha and Dharmakara".

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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by DGA » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:47 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:29 pm
DGA wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:44 pm
csmorg96 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:03 pm
My understanding is that a bodhisattva vows to continue suffering and taking rebirth in samsara until samsara has been emptied of all beings. My understanding of budhahood is that buddhas do not suffer anymore.
Was Shakyamuni a bodhisattva prior to becoming a Buddha?

How about other Buddhas, such as Amitabha?
Amitabha was first a king, then a bhiksu named Dharmakara, then a bodhisattva, before realizing his famous 48 vows and establishing his pure land as a fully awakened buddha. The details of his career are found in the Larger Amitabha Sutta starting under the heading "Lokeshvararaja Buddha and Dharmakara".
That is my understanding also.

I am trying to lead our friend csmorg96 to understand a Mahayana view.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:31 am

The vow of a bodhisattva is to postpone complete enlightenment until all other beings have become enlightened.
This doesn't mean that the bodhisattva continues suffering
just as a doctor or nurse goes back to work each day at the hospital doesn't mean they get sick themselves.

There is an idea of nirvana that is erroneous in so far as it is still a dualism: the idea that nirvana and samsara are intrinsically different,
because we understand the story of the Buddha having attained enlightenment, like taking a shower, you step in dirty and then you come out clean.

But perfect enlightenment, or nirvana, isn't going from one to another, which would be conditional, therefore finite,
but is transcending that very duality itself, thus unconditional; infinite,
which is why it even goes beyond the duality of birth and death as we know it.

A Buddha goes beyond the duality of samsara and nirvana.

A being becomes a buddha when the causes no longer arise in the mind, propelling that being to rebirth.
For example, if you don't feel jealous of another's happiness, the results of that jealousy that would otherwise arise simply won't occur.

A bodhisattva isn't trapped in samsara, but makes that vow to liberate all being and returns voluntarily
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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by seeker242 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:56 am

csmorg96 wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:03 pm
My understanding is that a bodhisattva vows to continue suffering and taking rebirth in samsara until samsara has been emptied of all beings. My understanding of budhahood is that buddhas do not suffer anymore.
They vow to save others but they do not vow to continue suffering. The Dalai Lama spoke about this a bit. :smile:

Question: When a practitioner of the Great Vehicle vows not to enter into nirvana until all beings are liberated, how is it possible to fulfill this vow?

Answer: Three modes of generating an altruistic intention to become enlightened are described--like a king, like a boatman, and like a shepherd. In the first, that like a king, one first seeks to attain a high state after which help can be given to others. In the second, like a boatman, one seeks to cross the river of suffering together with others. In the third, like a shepherd, one seeks to relieve the flock of suffering beings from pain first, oneself following afterward. These are indications of the style of the altruistic motivation for becoming enlightened; in actual fact, there is no way that a Bodhisattva either would want to or could delay achieving full enlightenment. As much as the motivation to help others increases, so much closer does one approach Buddhahood.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:47 am

csmorg96 wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:56 am
How do followers of Mahayana sects reconcile the bodhisattva vow to continue taking rebirth with Shakyamuni's complete enlightenment?
i give no shit on what sects reconcile
but mahayana has no vow, only "voluntary" activity
and there is no enlightenment, because there is no "self"

#FactsNotFaith bro (laughing)

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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by KathyLauren » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:13 pm

passel wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:45 am
Thomas- then what about the Jatakas, and all the places in the Pali canon where he talks about before was the Buddha and he calls himself the bodhisatta? That’s where the whole bodhisattva vow comes from

OP- because the Mahāyāna doesn’t equate buddhahood with cessation
The word "bodhisattva" has different meanings in the Theravada and the Mahayana literature. In the Theravada, it means the previous lifetimes of the Buddha, before he became enlightened. In the Mahayana, it means a being who has vowed to save all sentient beings.

There is a parallel, obviously, hence the use of the same word. But it is a different concept.

Om mani padme hum
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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by Bristollad » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:56 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:31 am
The vow of a bodhisattva is to postpone complete enlightenment until all other beings have become enlightened.
Nope, that is merely describing one of the types of motivation of a bodhisattva
seeker242 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:56 am
In the third, like a shepherd, one seeks to relieve the flock of suffering beings from pain first, oneself following afterward. These are indications of the style of the altruistic motivation for becoming enlightened; in actual fact, there is no way that a Bodhisattva either would want to or could delay achieving full enlightenment. As much as the motivation to help others increases, so much closer does one approach Buddhahood.
As it says in the King of Prayers (Samantabhadracarya pranidhana) [my emphasis]:
To awaken fully through this bodhisattva way,
I shall fulfill without exception
All the diverse aspirations of the awakening practice
Of all buddhas gone to freedom in the three times everywhere.

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GoingHome
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Re: Shakyamuni and bodhisattva vow

Post by GoingHome » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:24 am

Shakyamuni vows is to liberate sentient beings is the ages of defilement. He revealed in one of the sutra (sorry, I don't know English name) that this was His 8000th times showing that he reached full enlightenment for the benefit of sentient beings. For Buddha, even though in Nirvana, part of him still continually liberating sentient beings in uncountable of worlds. Just imagine, each Buddha influence "3 heaven great heaven worlds" (1 trillion galaxies), he have to appear as Buddha in every earth that contains sentient beings.
Earth Store Bodhisattva's vow is to liberate all sentient from hell and help all to become fully enlightened before he reach Nirvana. He separate himself into uncountable bodies spreading all over the universe to perform his Primal Vows. We are so limited to our understanding that we cannot even begin to pathom the power and what a Buddha is capable of doing.

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