time, space and the universe

[nichiren-123]

So I thought that talking about how time and space work, as well as discussing what the universe 'is' would be a fruitful area for discussion.
Obviously, since this is a buddhist forum we have to talk about these issues from a buddhist perspective, like, for instance, how time and space relate to dependent origination/emptiness.

So, to kick things off, if we remember that dependent origination means that everything (except nirvana, the tathagata, dharmadatu, dharmakaya, or whatever is unconditioned [I'll come back to the unconditioned in a minute]) ... that everything is conditioned then surely this would mean time and space are conditioned and therefore subject to change?
Focusing on time, I made a comment in another thread where I came to the conclusion that time is exactly the same as dependent origination. The reason I say this is that because "things" change, this change manifests itself as the flow of time. Or, to put it another way, if things existed in a permanent way then there would be no flow of time as nothing would change.
So I'm wondering if you can apply the same logic to space somehow? Maybe space changes according to the changes caused by dependent origination?
If I think back to what I know about relativity in physics then the idea of space changing makes sense (obviously I'm no physicist but I think it's a point worth mentioning). I'd like to hear other peoples views on the relationship between space and dependent origination.

On the flip side, if space is permanent and the same everywhere then that would mean space is unconditioned. But what does unconditioned mean?
obviously it means unchanging but that's not what I want to know. What I'm asking is what is the unconditioned; is it related to the conditional world and if so, how? Is the universe in its entirety unconditioned or is even the universe a conditoned phenomena? Final question, are all unconditioned things the same? i.e. is the tathagata the same as nirvana, the dharmadatu, the dharmakaya and any"thing" else unconditioned?

Long post, I know, but this is something I'm very interested in figuring out with help in this thread and I think it is a fruitful area of discussion.

Thanks,
N-123

[PuerAzaelis]

Tilopa:

Although you say space is empty,
You can’t say that space is "like this".
Likewise, although mind is said to be sheer clarity,
There is nothing there: you can’t say "it’s like this".

Thus, the nature of mind is inherently like space:
It includes everything you experience.

[nichiren-123]

Tilopa:

Although you say space is empty,
You can’t say that space is "like this".
Likewise, although mind is said to be sheer clarity,
There is nothing there: you can’t say "it’s like this".

Thus, the nature of mind is inherently like space:
It includes everything you experience.

Can you explain what that means?

[PuerAzaelis]

Lol. Ask me in a decade or so. Sorry, being facetious. I'm not able to be consistent with that text but a good teacher will.

For me at the moment it's all about trying to play out this kind of thing in practice.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Tilopa:

Although you say space is empty,
You can’t say that space is "like this".
Likewise, although mind is said to be sheer clarity,
There is nothing there: you can’t say "it’s like this".

Thus, the nature of mind is inherently like space:
It includes everything you experience.

Can you explain what that means?

Space is an unconditioned dharma. Wish I had a reference, I just know it's something I've read and heard in talks. I'm sure someone else can chime with with a citation.

[White Lotus]

My peanut on the matter: anything that exists in more than one dimension is compounded. So when we speak of space time continuum we are speaking of a compounded existant or non-existant. When two things come together you have a compound. Every compound ideally is subject to change and decay. Gravity for example can warp space/time. Space time is a very simple compound. There are different kinds of emptiness, some such as space exist in four dimensions and so are dimensionally compounded. The more complex a thing the easier its decomposition. Pure Sunyata is neither nothing nor anything and yet all (here i speak conventionally). Because sunyata is simple and yet complex it is subject to change. When we see impermanence: that is an aspect of being compounded. Only a compound can decay.
Things are dependent because they have no eternally abiding essence/self: are empty. Emptiness is subject to change. Like an empty cup then filled with water. Now you have it. Now you don't. If a compounded and dependent aggregate became utterly simple 1 the possibility of decay would be impossible since this elementary 1 is indivisible. Nor would it be dependent since it could neither be added to nor taken away from. A buddha is an utterly simple uncompounded and independent 1. A "point" as one buddhist monk has said. An infinite point. Simply 1.

[KathyLauren]

The standard scientific/cosmological view of space is that it changes: it expands in response to forces that are not yet fully understood. Anything that changes in response to causes and conditions is, by definition, conditioned.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy

[明安 Myoan]

Does space as an unconditioned dharma include outer space? I feel like Malcolm would know the answers to the questions in this thread

[jkarlins]

Space as an unconditioned dharma doesn't mean outer space, the cosmos. At least I don't think so?

This is an important point, there's space in the dharma, and then space as science uses it.

[明安 Myoan]

(apologies for obsessive post editing, the version quoted above was how I wrote it initially, but I decided to reword it to better reflect my uncertainty)

[nichiren-123]

Does space as an unconditioned dharma include outer space? I feel like Malcolm would know the answers to the questions in this thread

Outer space? as in planets, galaxies and nebula's?

By 'space' I meant dimensional space. i.e. distance, area, volume or the three dimensions which are found everywhere, including 'outer' space as well I guess.

So this kind of space extends everywhere but idk if that would mean it is unconditoned or not? Because on the other hand space is relative, i.e. how you experience space (distance, area, etc) is different in different places. For instance in a strong gravitational field.

[nichiren-123]

Space as an unconditioned dharma doesn't mean outer space, the cosmos. At least I don't think so?

This is an important point, there's space in the dharma, and then space as science uses it.

What's the difference between space as a dharma and space as science uses it?

[jkarlins]

Whoah tough question. I don't know.

Jake

maybe someone else will.

[takso]

So I thought that talking about how time and space work, as well as discussing what the universe 'is' would be a fruitful area for discussion.
Obviously, since this is a buddhist forum we have to talk about these issues from a buddhist perspective, like, for instance, how time and space relate to dependent origination/emptiness.

So, to kick things off, if we remember that dependent origination means that everything (except nirvana, the tathagata, dharmadatu, dharmakaya, or whatever is unconditioned [I'll come back to the unconditioned in a minute]) ... that everything is conditioned then surely this would mean time and space are conditioned and therefore subject to change?
Focusing on time, I made a comment in another thread where I came to the conclusion that time is exactly the same as dependent origination. The reason I say this is that because "things" change, this change manifests itself as the flow of time. Or, to put it another way, if things existed in a permanent way then there would be no flow of time as nothing would change.
So I'm wondering if you can apply the same logic to space somehow? Maybe space changes according to the changes caused by dependent origination?
If I think back to what I know about relativity in physics then the idea of space changing makes sense (obviously I'm no physicist but I think it's a point worth mentioning). I'd like to hear other peoples views on the relationship between space and dependent origination.

On the flip side, if space is permanent and the same everywhere then that would mean space is unconditioned. But what does unconditioned mean?
obviously it means unchanging but that's not what I want to know. What I'm asking is what is the unconditioned; is it related to the conditional world and if so, how? Is the universe in its entirety unconditioned or is even the universe a conditoned phenomena? Final question, are all unconditioned things the same? i.e. is the tathagata the same as nirvana, the dharmadatu, the dharmakaya and any"thing" else unconditioned?

Long post, I know, but this is something I'm very interested in figuring out with help in this thread and I think it is a fruitful area of discussion.

Thanks,
N-123

1. Space = an expression for the existence of energy. Energy is nothing but vibration. If you initiate vibration, alongside, you would generate space. This means in the absence of energy, there is no space arising. So energy is space in tango, space is energy in play.

2. Energy = an alternate expression for emptiness. Energy and emptiness are two aspects of the same thing - the two sides of the same coin.
Both emptiness and energy have two distinct characteristics i.e. inherent existing and dependent arising. This means on one hand, we could mention that energy is a constant factor, on the other hand, it is a variable factor under the influence of conditional phenomena.

3. Anything that inherently exists would not involve change. And it bears with the characteristics of beginning-less and end-less - just like emptiness, energy or space.

4. Created objects cannot inherently exist since that would involve change and and nothing stays unchanging for a slightest moment under the influence of conditional phenomena all the time.

5. Time = a dimension for becoming process or event, just like length, width and height are indicators for size and volume. Time doesn't exist in nibbāna since the becoming process is deemed redundant there. The pure energy would freeze indefinitely in the absence of time.

[takso]

Tilopa:

Although you say space is empty,
You can’t say that space is "like this".
Likewise, although mind is said to be sheer clarity,
There is nothing there: you can’t say "it’s like this".

Thus, the nature of mind is inherently like space:
It includes everything you experience.

Can you explain what that means?

"like this" means the related condition would be fettered under one's pre-conditioned mindset - just like putting labels on things. In actual fact, one should never impose with labels on anything for the true reality of all things is unfettered. Indeed, it is our delusive mind that always tend to manipulate on things with myriad of labels.

Ultimate reality exists beyond mind and beyond concepts and words in the sense that it is beyond our usual ways of perceiving things. Language and conception only imply that things exist in distinct manners i.e. wise person, dumb person, saint, devil, etc. - in such well-defined and independent categories. Perceiving ultimate reality is seeing that things do not exist in these fantasised, impossible ways, in black and white categories.

In other words, ultimate reality is such label-less, bound-less, stereotype-less, colour-less, beginning-less, end-less and for the ease of our expression, we could summarise it as the ‘deepest fact about things.’

[muni]

Tilopa:

Although you say space is empty,
You can’t say that space is "like this".
Likewise, although mind is said to be sheer clarity,
There is nothing there: you can’t say "it’s like this".

Thus, the nature of mind is inherently like space:
It includes everything you experience.

Can you explain what that means?

"like this" means the related condition would be fettered under one's pre-conditioned mindset - just like putting labels on things. In actual fact, one should never impose with labels on anything for the true reality of all things is unfettered. Indeed, it is our delusive mind that always tend to manipulate on things with myriad of labels.

Ultimate reality exists beyond mind and beyond concepts and words in the sense that it is beyond our usual ways of perceiving things. Language and conception only imply that things exist in distinct manners i.e. wise person, dumb person, saint, devil, etc. - in such well-defined and independent categories. Perceiving ultimate reality is seeing that things do not exist in these fantasised, impossible ways, in black and white categories.

In other words, ultimate reality is such label-less, bound-less, stereotype-less, colour-less, beginning-less, end-less and for the ease of our expression, we could summarise it as the ‘deepest fact about things.’

Labeling is taking place in confusion, for what is nonexistence is taken to exist. Longchenpa

Stop labeling. Guru Rinpoche