Sastavadava and ucchedavada

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PuerAzaelis
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Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:08 pm

We are told that eternalism is the translation of "sastavadava" and nihilism is "ucchedavada".

Is there a reliable source for a literal translation of these terms? What do they actually mean?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:16 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:08 pm
We are told that eternalism is the translation of "sastavadava" and nihilism is "ucchedavada".

Is there a reliable source for a literal translation of these terms? What do they actually mean?
Ucchedavāda means "those who advocate cutting off," that is annihilation rather than nihilism. It is the assertion that since the person ceases at death, there is no karma, not future lives, etc.

Śaśvatavāda is the assertion that an entity, an atman, a world, etc., is permanent and undergoes no change, hence eternalism.

Both positions contradict dependent origination, the middle way.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:29 pm

What is the etymology of these words? The reason I ask is that I heard that they relate to the question of whether the fruit definitely results from (sastavadava) or does not dependably result from (ucchedavada) the seed. Hence they pertain more to a view of causation rather than existence.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Malcolm
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:33 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:29 pm
What is the etymology of these words? The reason I ask is that I heard that they relate to the question of whether the fruit definitely results from (sastavadava) or does not dependably result from (ucchedavada) the seed. Hence they pertain more to a view of causation rather than existence.
The original usage is the one I gave. However, there are many implications that can be drawn.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:36 pm

Would it be valid to ever use "order" and "chaos" for these terms?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

pael
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by pael » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:16 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:08 pm
We are told that eternalism is the translation of "sastavadava" and nihilism is "ucchedavada".

Is there a reliable source for a literal translation of these terms? What do they actually mean?
Ucchedavāda means "those who advocate cutting off," that is annihilation rather than nihilism. It is the assertion that since the person ceases at death, there is no karma, not future lives, etc.
Is it same as thinking death is like fainting or sleep from which you won't wake up? Or thinking 'death is the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism'? Is this ucchedavada? I want faint and I don't want to wake up. I want to sleep forever. I wish person ceases at death. I fear person doesn't cease at death. I can't be sure. Does this make me annihilationist? How to solve problem? Any good study material about dependent origination or other suggestions? I'm confused.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Malcolm
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:04 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:36 pm
Would it be valid to ever use "order" and "chaos" for these terms?
No.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:33 pm

Ok ty.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:27 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:29 pm
What is the etymology of these words?
Śāśvata seems to literally mean "eternal". I can't find the PIE root.

Uccheda seems to mean "abolition" or "get rid of". I can't find the PIE root for this one either.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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