Sastavadava and ucchedavada

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PuerAzaelis
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Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:08 pm

We are told that eternalism is the translation of "sastavadava" and nihilism is "ucchedavada".

Is there a reliable source for a literal translation of these terms? What do they actually mean?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:16 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:08 pm
We are told that eternalism is the translation of "sastavadava" and nihilism is "ucchedavada".

Is there a reliable source for a literal translation of these terms? What do they actually mean?
Ucchedavāda means "those who advocate cutting off," that is annihilation rather than nihilism. It is the assertion that since the person ceases at death, there is no karma, not future lives, etc.

Śaśvatavāda is the assertion that an entity, an atman, a world, etc., is permanent and undergoes no change, hence eternalism.

Both positions contradict dependent origination, the middle way.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:29 pm

What is the etymology of these words? The reason I ask is that I heard that they relate to the question of whether the fruit definitely results from (sastavadava) or does not dependably result from (ucchedavada) the seed. Hence they pertain more to a view of causation rather than existence.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:33 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:29 pm
What is the etymology of these words? The reason I ask is that I heard that they relate to the question of whether the fruit definitely results from (sastavadava) or does not dependably result from (ucchedavada) the seed. Hence they pertain more to a view of causation rather than existence.
The original usage is the one I gave. However, there are many implications that can be drawn.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:36 pm

Would it be valid to ever use "order" and "chaos" for these terms?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

pael
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by pael » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:16 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:08 pm
We are told that eternalism is the translation of "sastavadava" and nihilism is "ucchedavada".

Is there a reliable source for a literal translation of these terms? What do they actually mean?
Ucchedavāda means "those who advocate cutting off," that is annihilation rather than nihilism. It is the assertion that since the person ceases at death, there is no karma, not future lives, etc.
Is it same as thinking death is like fainting or sleep from which you won't wake up? Or thinking 'death is the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism'? Is this ucchedavada? I want faint and I don't want to wake up. I want to sleep forever. I wish person ceases at death. I fear person doesn't cease at death. I can't be sure. Does this make me annihilationist? How to solve problem? Any good study material about dependent origination or other suggestions? I'm confused.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Malcolm
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:04 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:36 pm
Would it be valid to ever use "order" and "chaos" for these terms?
No.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:33 pm

Ok ty.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:27 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:29 pm
What is the etymology of these words?
Śāśvata seems to literally mean "eternal". I can't find the PIE root.

Uccheda seems to mean "abolition" or "get rid of". I can't find the PIE root for this one either.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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