Yes, you need a teacher.

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Malcolm
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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:04 pm

Astus wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:00 pm
How so? The whole life of a nirmanakaya is for the education of beings. So it is not some accident that Siddhartha had no teacher, that one of the primary characteristics of a buddha is that it is he who turns the wheel of Dharma in a time when there is no Dharma.
It is inapplicable because while the Buddha demonstrated the play of attaining buddhahood, in fact he did not attain buddhahood in that lifetime.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Astus » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:04 pm
It is inapplicable because while the Buddha demonstrated the play of attaining buddhahood, in fact he did not attain buddhahood in that lifetime.
And the demonstration had a purpose, didn't it?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by srivijaya » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:13 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:06 pm
To those attempting to walk the Vajrayana path, not having a teacher is problematic to the point of being an impossibility. Which I would say is pretty problematic for them.
General Sutra and coming to grips with basic ideas is probably where most visitors would start, in which case advice can be given no?

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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:16 pm

Astus wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:04 pm
It is inapplicable because while the Buddha demonstrated the play of attaining buddhahood, in fact he did not attain buddhahood in that lifetime.
And the demonstration had a purpose, didn't it?
Yes, for people of Hinayāna persuasion. However, the Buddha taught it was necessary to rely on a teacher. In the Samcayagathas is it said:

Just as a group of patients relies on medicine to be cured,
one should rely unwaveringly upon a virtuous mentor.


In the Ratnamegha Sūtra, it is said:

Now then, since virtuous qualities will increase and nonvirtue will decline if one relies upon the guru, the preceptor [mkhan po, upādhyāyaḥ] will generate the thought of teaching those with greater or lesser hearing, or those with discipline or corrupted discipline.

In the Gandhāvyuha Sūtra it is said:

The virtuous mentor comprehends incorrect actions, correctly turns one away from shameless places, [12/a] extracts one from the city of samsara…Child of a good family, since one always thinks in that way, serve virtuous mentors.

And:


Child of a good family, since one is ill from karma and afflictions, generate the thought that one is a patient. Generate the thought that the virtuous mentor is a physician. Generate the thought that the Dharma instructions are the medicine. Generate the thought that one’s diligent practice of such Dharma will cure the illness […]

As did Maitreyanatha:

Rely on a virtuous mentor who is disciplined, peaceful, pacified,
diligent in the highest qualities, very learned,
understands the truth, eloquent,
has a loving nature, and has abandoned regret.


And:

One should serve the virtuous mentor
through veneration, wealth, attendance, and practice.


As did Nāgārjuna:

If you rely on those who
are content, compassionate, and disciplined,
with discerning wisdom that removes afflictions,
through knowing them, give them respect.



And Śantideva:

The virtuous mentor
skilled in the meaning of Mahāyāna and
possessing the supreme disciplined conduct of a bodhisattva
should never be abandoned, even at the cost of one’s life.


Even the Three Hundred Verses on Vinaya states

Disciplined, knows the rites of Vinaya,
loving towards the ill, has a pure retinue,
diligent in giving assistance with Dharma and materials,
his instruction timely— such a guru is to be praised.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Admin_PC » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:41 pm

Astus wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:54 pm
Ziran 自然 as spontaneity or naturalness is a non-Buddhist/Daoist interpretation. In Buddhism it is a translation for svayambhū and 自然智 is svayambhū-jñāna. The two terms (無師智, 自然智) are combined in the Nirvana Sutra as 無師自悟 - teacherless self-enlightenment.
It would appear that a number of translators disagree with your claim of "spontaneity" being a non-Buddhist interpretation.
http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xp ... 6%E6%99%BA
自然智 - Basic Meaning: spontaneous knowledge
Knowledge born of itself; intuitive knowledge, effortless knowledge (Skt. svayaṃbhu-jñāna, svayaṃbhū-jñāna). Knowledge that one possesses innately, which is not the result of conditioning. Synonymous with 無功用智, 自然本智 and 本智. 〔法華經 T 262.9.13b26〕 [Gene Reeves; source(s): Ui, Nakamura, Hirakawa, Yokoi, Soothill]
One of the synonymous terms (自然本智) - only differs by the character of 本 (meaning "root" or "original")
http://www.buddhism-dict.net/cgi-bin/xp ... c-667a%27)
自然本智 - Basic Meaning: innate wisdom
Senses: Natural wisdom. Syn. with 自然智. 〔宗鏡錄 T 2016.48.716c16〕 [Gene Reeves]
It is one of the 3 types of wisdom (this entry in particular shows that 無師智 and 自然智 are not merely synonyms.
三種大智 - Basic Meaning: three kinds of great wisdom
Senses: The three major kinds of wisdom: (a) untaught wisdom 無師智; (b) natural wisdom 自然智; (c) unobstructed 無礙智. 〔大乘止觀法門 T 1924.46.642b30〕 [Charles Muller; source(s): Nakamura, Soothill]
While the full term doesn't appear, the natural/spontaneous part (自然) is all over the Pure Land sutras.
Example from the Shorter Sukhavati Sutra:
"聞是音者皆自然生念佛念法念僧之心"
"All who hear this naturally become mindful of the Buddha, mindful of the Dharma, and mindful of the Sangha"
Or as BDK translates it:
"Everyone who hears the sounds spontaneously becomes mindful of the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha."

I'm not exactly sure what Yongmi's on about, but I seriously don't see how "self-made wisdom" even fits here. That would mean it was something fabricated.

自 - Basic Meaning: self
Senses: Oneself; by oneself, of itself, automatically, naturally; of course (Skt. sva, svayam). [Charles Muller; source(s): Nakamura]
From. [Charles Muller]
According to, accordingly. [Charles Muller]
自 is used as the opposite of 他 another, other's, etc. e.g., 自力 oneʼs own strength as contrasted with 他力 the strength of another, especially in the salvific power of a buddha or bodhisattva. It is also used in the sense of ātman 阿怛摩 the self, or the soul. [Charles Muller; source(s): Soothill, Hirakawa]
自 - Originally a pictogram (象形) of a nose; in China (and East Asia) one points at one’s nose to indicate oneself, hence an ideogram (指事) of “self”.

然 - Basic Meaning: in this way
Senses: In that way; yes, certainly, really, so. [Charles Muller; source(s): Soothill, Nakamura]
Adjectival or adverbial formation: —ly, —ness. [Charles Muller]
Still, nevertheless, though, but, on the other hand. [Charles Muller]
The original meaning of this logograph is to blaze or to burn. [Charles Muller]
(Skt. tu, api tu; evam, upa-√pad; √jval, dīpayati; api tu khalu punaḥ, √arh, ādayeya, ādīpayati, ādīpta, iti, ca, jyotis, jvalana, tatas, tarhi, dāhaka, prajvalita, prajvālayati, pradīpta, prasaṅga, samaḥ kramaḥ, saṃpradīpta, siddha) [Charles Muller; source(s): Hirakawa]
然 - 1. so; thus; in this manner; like this quotations, 2. Suffix forming adverbs, sometimes also adjectives, with an abstract meaning of “in the manner of, like”.

Summary of Henshall's Remembering the Kanji: 然 - originally meant to roast dog meat, then it came to mean roast or burn in a broad sense. It was later borrowed phonetically to express "thus/", "duly/", "as things should be" (but derives from an inflexion of this term, to the effect of "be that as it may").

智 - Basic Meaning: to know
Senses: Cognition, awareness (Skt. jñāna; Tib. shes pa, ye shes). The function of the intellect. Intelligence. Although in pre-Buddhist literary Chinese the primary connotation of this term is 'wisdom,' (as distinguished from 'knowledge' 知) in the translation of Abhidharma, Yogācāra, and Tathāgatagarbha texts from Sanskrit into Chinese, it was commonly used to translate jñāna, thus cognition, understanding, awareness. It is, nonetheless, also seen used to translate prajñā, as in 智度, as well as alone. The tendency in later East Asian works (Chan, Huayan, and Tiantai) is to move more in the direction of the sense of wisdom.
Buddhist discourse commonly bifurcates cognition into two general types: (1) pure, nondiscriminating awareness (such as 正體智), and (2) the discriminating cognition necessary for mundane functionality, which can have either the negative connotation of deluded mundane discrimination or the accurate discrimination used by bodhisattvas to teach others. See 二智. Prajñā is transliterated as 若那 and jñāna is transliterated as 闍那. See also 一智 (Skt. dhī, buddhi, abhijñā, mati).
[Charles Muller; source(s): Ui, Nakamura, YBh-Ind, Stephen Hodge, Yokoi]
Perceiving (Pāli saṅjānana). 〔解脫道論 T 1648.32.414a01〕 [Nyanatusita]
(Skt. jāneya, jñāna-dhātu, jñāna-saṃniśraya, jñānin, jñeya, paṇḍita-jātīya, parijñā, parijñāna, parijñeya, prajānatā, prajñā-dravya, pratibodha, pratyaya, pratyavagama, budha, vijña, vitti, vidyā, vidyāt, vidvas, vuddhi, saṃkalpa, saṃprajanya, samyag-jñāna, samyag-dṛṣṭi, susaṃprajñā, sūri, smṛti, svabhāva-buddhi; Pāli ñāṇa) [Charles Muller; source(s): Hirakawa]
智 - 1. wisdom; knowledge; intelligence (ex1: 智慧 ― zhìhuì ― wisdom, ex2: 智力 ― zhìlì ― intelligence), 2. wise; informed; intelligent; astute

Like I said, I could see it as "knowledge of one's own nature", or "naturally/spontaneously arising wisdom" ("innate wisdom" seems even more appropriate), but "self-made" has connotations that just don't seem appropriate in this instance.
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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Astus » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:16 pm
However, the Buddha taught it was necessary to rely on a teacher.
Necessary/needed and beneficial/recommended are not the same.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:49 pm

Astus wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:47 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:16 pm
However, the Buddha taught it was necessary to rely on a teacher.
Necessary/needed and beneficial/recommended are not the same.
Necessary, not just beneficial.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by DGA » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:50 am

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:45 pm
I think its instructive that the Buddha's counsel on finding a teacher starts with a careful examination of the person to determine if they are worthy of our trust, and then he counsels a graduated development of trust over time based on confirmation of teachings through putting them into practice.
Yes, I agree. It is excellent advice.

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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by DGA » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:55 am

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:48 pm
Are there really such mythical seeming creatures as Book Buddhists?
I have observed them and interacted with them in their native habitats (book readings and lectures), and also in captivity (here at DW and elsewhere online). I can confirm their existence. We are not talking about the yeti or Sasquatch here.

If you aren't satisfied with the specimens that have participated in this thread... Here's a recent example here at DW of someone arguing against the necessity or primacy of a kalanya mitra for those persons who are able to read and have access to appropriate materials:

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=26989&start=20#p416392

More on this in a moment.

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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by DGA » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:05 am

DGA wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:56 pm
markatex wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:11 am
But without some kind of guidance, there's a tendency to just confirm your own prejudices in a solitary practice and you never really get anywhere.
Yes, this is a fundamental point I think.

It compounds itself when people who are going around in circles become convinced that they themselves are authorities, and in their effort to teach others, sow a great deal of confusion and misunderstanding.
For an example illustrating the the problem of those who are not prepared to teach others becoming convinced by their reading or whatever other media they have consumed that they have some calling to teach, consider this fairly recent exchange:

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=23047&p=344492#p344492

Always with the hyperbole...

I have observed similar phenomena here at DW, most memorably in the Zen and Dzogchen sub-fora but not only there, and also at the late and lamented e-sangha.

To my mind, it makes sense to discuss the problem and its antidotes in this venue, because it is visible here and because (like it or not) this forum is used as a resource for those who are testing a curiosity in Buddha Dharma, and looking for resources.

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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by boda » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:40 am

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:45 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:19 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:38 pm

Because some teachers are shmucks.
I suppose that could be a reason for some, but I think it more likely that people have (anti)-authority issues, or an unwillingness to enter into a relationship which goes against the "Rugged Individualist" grain, so to speak.
Is the Rugged Individualist anyone's first choice?
I don’t imagine the need for a father figure is a matter of choice.

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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:00 am

DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:05 am
DGA wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:56 pm
markatex wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:11 am
But without some kind of guidance, there's a tendency to just confirm your own prejudices in a solitary practice and you never really get anywhere.
Yes, this is a fundamental point I think.

It compounds itself when people who are going around in circles become convinced that they themselves are authorities, and in their effort to teach others, sow a great deal of confusion and misunderstanding.
For an example illustrating the the problem of those who are not prepared to teach others becoming convinced by their reading or whatever other media they have consumed that they have some calling to teach, consider this fairly recent exchange:

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=23047&p=344492#p344492

Always with the hyperbole...

I have observed similar phenomena here at DW, most memorably in the Zen and Dzogchen sub-fora but not only there, and also at the late and lamented e-sangha.

To my mind, it makes sense to discuss the problem and its antidotes in this venue, because it is visible here and because (like it or not) this forum is used as a resource for those who are testing a curiosity in Buddha Dharma, and looking for resources.
Not to take away from your general point, but even as Richard and I never saw eye to eye, as best I can gather, he is not a pure Book Buddhist... He has had exposure and I surmise a rather extensive relationship to a Sangha, though one that is not particularly rich in learned fellows. He is however an example of what can happen with Dharma books, literacy, and little else. A close, learned friend might have steered this fellow in another direction, harnessed the energy and sublimated it into other Dharmic activities.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Queequeg » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:02 am

boda wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:40 am
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:45 pm
Is the Rugged Individualist anyone's first choice?
I don’t imagine the need for a father figure is a matter of choice.
What do you mean? Can't decipher the tone.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Astus » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:26 pm

Admin_PC wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:41 pm
I'm not exactly sure what Yongmi's on about, but I seriously don't see how "self-made wisdom" even fits here. That would mean it was something fabricated.
The problem Zongmi highlights is the assumption that there is such a thing as causeless becoming. The Ratnagotravibhaga explains this buddha quality in this way:

"Being realized by oneself.
It is cognizable without any help of others;"

(RGV 1.7ab, tr Takasaki, p 156)

And the commentary (p 157):

"Thus, not having heard the Buddhahood, which is a quite marvellous and unthinkable sphere, from somebody else, but having perfectly cognized its unutterable nature ‘by one self’, i.e. by means of self-born knowledge which needs no teacher"

Jamgon Kongtrul's commentary (Buddha Nature, p 104):

"Since it must be realized by means of self-sprung primordial wisdom being self-aware, it is not a realization due to outer conditions such as other people’s utterances and so on."

So the reason I translated it as "self-made" (cf. "self-generated" in Lotus Sutra, ch 3, BDK ed, p 61) is because it refers to a buddha attaining it on his own, not because it just appears for no reason at all, since if that were the case, buddhahood would be a random event.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Astus » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:49 pm
Necessary, not just beneficial.
The quotes you provided talked of the benefits and recommended having a good friend. Do you perhaps have some sources stating it as a necessity?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Admin_PC » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:30 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:26 pm
So the reason I translated it as "self-made" (cf. "self-generated" in Lotus Sutra, ch 3, BDK ed, p 61) is because it refers to a buddha attaining it on his own, not because it just appears for no reason at all, since if that were the case, buddhahood would be a random event.
I think I see the nuance you're referring to. At the same time, one of the listed synonyms is 無功用智. The first part is defined as:
無功用 - Basic Meaning: effortless[ness]
Senses: Without effort or exertion; spontaneous. The word 功用 refers to the intentional activities of physical action 身, speech 口, and thought 意, also called 作用. 無功用 means that these are absent, and thus intentional activity is unnecessary. Bodhisattvas in the eighth ground have fully ripened their practices and original vows, and thus they practice spontaneously without specific goals or intentions; thus the eighth ground is also called the ground of no exertion 無功用地 (Skt. anābhoga; anabhisaṃskāra; akaraṇīya, anābhoga-gati, ayatna, nirabhisaṃskāra, niryatna, nirvyāpāra, niṣprayatna, niḥsāmarthya, sva-rasa, svarasena; lhun gyis grub pa, mi bsam, rang gi ngang gis, rtsol ba med pa). 〔瑜伽論 T 1579.30.366c1〕 [Charles Muller; source(s): Nakamura, Stephen Hodge, YBh-Ind, Hirakawa, Iwanami]
So I imagine the full nuance is somewhere between cause-less & gained directly through one's own struggle. Wisdom that manifests naturally through the ripening of original vows & practices - with no direct, intentional exertion.
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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Astus » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:42 pm

Admin_PC wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:30 pm
At the same time, one of the listed synonyms is 無功用智.
...
So I imagine the full nuance is somewhere between cause-less & gained directly through one's own struggle. Wisdom that manifests naturally through the ripening of original vows & practices - with no direct, intentional exertion.
The definition in RGV (tr Takasaki, p 157) is: "It is free from efforts [anābhoga / 自然] because all dualistic views [prapañca / 戲論] and false discriminations [vikalpa / 虛妄分別] have ceased to exist [upaśānta / 寂靜]." And it is also used in the context of buddha activity: "Thus, as being Tathāgata, though it is immutable and of the characteristic of non-activity, the whole action of the Perfectly Enlightened One proceeds without any effort, ceaselessly and uninterruptedly as far as the world exists."

So, the sense of manifesting naturally because of past efforts applies to the second part, however, even there the absence of discrimination is a key factor.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Malcolm
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Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:46 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:49 pm
Necessary, not just beneficial.
The quotes you provided talked of the benefits and recommended having a good friend. Do you perhaps have some sources stating it as a necessity?
The quotes I provided are imperatives.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Astus
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Location: Budapest

Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Astus » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:46 pm
The quotes I provided are imperatives.
Imperatives are what one should do, it is the recommended way. A necessity, a need, is somewhat stronger and more restrictive.

"If one should find a judicious companion,
a fellow wanderer, of good behavior, resolute,
having overcome all obstacles, one should
live with him, satisfied and mindful.

But if one does not find a judicious companion,
a fellow wanderer, of good behavior, resolute,
like a king who has abandoned a conquered realm,
one should live alone like a rhinoceros horn.

Surely, we praised the excellence of companionship:
one should resort to companions one's equal or better.
Not obtaining these, as one who eats blamelessly
one should live alone like a rhinoceros horn."

(Snp 1.3, tr Bhikkhu Bodhi, p 163)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Malcolm
Posts: 27366
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Yes, you need a teacher.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:32 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:29 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:46 pm
The quotes I provided are imperatives.
Imperatives are what one should do, it is the recommended way. A necessity, a need, is somewhat stronger and more restrictive.

"If one should find a judicious companion,
a fellow wanderer, of good behavior, resolute,
having overcome all obstacles, one should
live with him, satisfied and mindful.

But if one does not find a judicious companion,
a fellow wanderer, of good behavior, resolute,
like a king who has abandoned a conquered realm,
one should live alone like a rhinoceros horn.

Surely, we praised the excellence of companionship:
one should resort to companions one's equal or better.
Not obtaining these, as one who eats blamelessly
one should live alone like a rhinoceros horn."

(Snp 1.3, tr Bhikkhu Bodhi, p 163)
This is talking about associates, not teachers. It is therefore irrelevant.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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