32 marks of the Buddha

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Tolya M
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Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by Tolya M » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:28 am

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:51 pm
The Diamond Sutra appears to deconstruct the whole idea:

“Subhūti, what do you think, can the Tathāgata be seen by his physical marks?”

“No, World Honored One, the Tathāgata cannot be seen by his physical marks. And why? It is because the physical marks are spoken of by the Tathāgata as no physical marks.”

The Buddha said to Subhūti, “All with marks is deceptive. If you can see all marks as no marks then you see the Tathāgata.”
The DS says that one cannot see the Buddha through 32\80 marks. This is not that these marks are absent on nirmanakaya or sambhogakaya level. Rupa is always mundane so to see dharmakaya one must be a buddha.
thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:39 am

The 32 marks are Mahayana teachings or not?
Marks are shared. The notion of Buddha in SE Asia is very close to mahayana (see "Buddha in Theravada Buddhism" by TOSHIICHI ENDO).
Berry wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:48 am
.
I hope its ok to post this here, but there's an article "On the 32 marks" by Bhikkhu Sujato in which he says :
There is plenty of incidental detail in the Suttas and Vinaya that show that the Buddha was normal in appearance, so any freakish or supernatural interpretation of the marks must be wrong. Leaving a few of the bizarre elements aside, most of the marks are straightforward signs of physical beauty: black hair, white teeth, gold skin, and the like.

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/04/06 ... -32-marks/
Some theravadins are too pragmatic actually. There are visions of 1000-spoked wheel the Buddha's footprints in the Pali Canon for a moment))) Among other things these signs indicate a perfect appearance from skillful deeds. Bodhisattvas are determined by these characteristics as ven. Ananda Maitreya said. But in other universes these marks differ.

thomaslaw
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Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by thomaslaw » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:06 am

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:17 pm
I might be way off here thomaslaw, but I think you may be attempting to understand the Mahayana through the lens of the Theravada.
If that is correct it is a recipe for confusion. The Mahayana has to be understood on its own terms.
I am concerned the fact that both Theravada and Mahayana texts do not actually record the Buddha as saying that he has the marks.

Simon E.
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Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by Simon E. » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:34 am

Rightoh.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Coëmgenu
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Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:49 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:06 am
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:17 pm
I might be way off here thomaslaw, but I think you may be attempting to understand the Mahayana through the lens of the Theravada.
If that is correct it is a recipe for confusion. The Mahayana has to be understood on its own terms.
I am concerned the fact that both Theravada and Mahayana texts do not actually record the Buddha as saying that he has the marks.
Śrāvakayāna Buddhavacana from DN:

These, brethren, are the Thirty-two Marks of the Superman, wherewith endowed he has two careers that lie open to him and none other: that of the Lord of the Wheel and that of Buddha Supreme.

Whether or not he "had" them, he is recorded as saying he did.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

Punya
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Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by Punya » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:54 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:49 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:06 am
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:17 pm
I might be way off here thomaslaw, but I think you may be attempting to understand the Mahayana through the lens of the Theravada.
If that is correct it is a recipe for confusion. The Mahayana has to be understood on its own terms.
I am concerned the fact that both Theravada and Mahayana texts do not actually record the Buddha as saying that he has the marks.
Śrāvakayāna Buddhavacana from DN:

These, brethren, are the Thirty-two Marks of the Superman, wherewith endowed he has two careers that lie open to him and none other: that of the Lord of the Wheel and that of Buddha Supreme.

Whether or not he "had" them, he is recorded as saying he did.
And even more important is understanding what he meant by it.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

thomaslaw
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Location: Australia

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by thomaslaw » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:32 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:49 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:06 am
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:17 pm
I might be way off here thomaslaw, but I think you may be attempting to understand the Mahayana through the lens of the Theravada.
If that is correct it is a recipe for confusion. The Mahayana has to be understood on its own terms.
I am concerned the fact that both Theravada and Mahayana texts do not actually record the Buddha as saying that he has the marks.
Śrāvakayāna Buddhavacana from DN:

These, brethren, are the Thirty-two Marks of the Superman, wherewith endowed he has two careers that lie open to him and none other: that of the Lord of the Wheel and that of Buddha Supreme.

Whether or not he "had" them, he is recorded as saying he did.
The Buddha in the text does not say he is the Superman.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:37 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:32 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:49 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:06 am


I am concerned the fact that both Theravada and Mahayana texts do not actually record the Buddha as saying that he has the marks.
Śrāvakayāna Buddhavacana from DN:

These, brethren, are the Thirty-two Marks of the Superman, wherewith endowed he has two careers that lie open to him and none other: that of the Lord of the Wheel and that of Buddha Supreme.

Whether or not he "had" them, he is recorded as saying he did.
The Buddha in the text does not say he is the Superman.
The Buddha in the text does say that the career of the Buddha Supreme is open to the Superman and none other.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

thomaslaw
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Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by thomaslaw » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:15 am

:jumping: :thumbsup:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:37 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:32 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:49 pm


Śrāvakayāna Buddhavacana from DN:

These, brethren, are the Thirty-two Marks of the Superman, wherewith endowed he has two careers that lie open to him and none other: that of the Lord of the Wheel and that of Buddha Supreme.

Whether or not he "had" them, he is recorded as saying he did.
The Buddha in the text does not say he is the Superman.
The Buddha in the text does say that the career of the Buddha Supreme is open to the Superman and none other.
But the Buddha in the text does not say: I am the Superman.

thecowisflying
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Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by thecowisflying » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:06 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:15 am
:jumping: :thumbsup:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:37 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:32 am


The Buddha in the text does not say he is the Superman.
The Buddha in the text does say that the career of the Buddha Supreme is open to the Superman and none other.
But the Buddha in the text does not say: I am the Superman.
Are you trolling?

thomaslaw
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Location: Australia

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by thomaslaw » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:15 pm

:buddha1:
thecowisflying wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:06 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:15 am
:jumping: :thumbsup:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:37 am


The Buddha in the text does say that the career of the Buddha Supreme is open to the Superman and none other.
But the Buddha in the text does not say: I am the Superman.
Are you trolling?
No, I am not.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:49 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:15 pm
:buddha1:
thecowisflying wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:06 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:15 am
:jumping: :thumbsup:

But the Buddha in the text does not say: I am the Superman.
Are you trolling?
No, I am not.
He literally needs the Buddha to say "I, bhiksus, am a/the superman". He doesn't understand that the Buddha says that only those with the 32 marks of a superman can be a Buddha or a Wheel-turning Monarch. He needs those literal words: "I, bhiksus, am a/the superman" or he doesn't get it, it seems.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

thomaslaw
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Location: Australia

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by thomaslaw » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:08 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:49 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:15 pm
:buddha1:
thecowisflying wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:06 pm


Are you trolling?
No, I am not.
He literally needs the Buddha to say "I, bhiksus, am a/the superman". He doesn't understand that the Buddha says that only those with the 32 marks of a superman can be a Buddha or a Wheel-turning Monarch. He needs those literal words: "I, bhiksus, am a/the superman" or he doesn't get it, it seems.
Correct. The Buddha never in the texts says he has the 32 marks.

thecowisflying
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:35 am

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by thecowisflying » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:58 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:08 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:49 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:15 pm
:buddha1:

No, I am not.
He literally needs the Buddha to say "I, bhiksus, am a/the superman". He doesn't understand that the Buddha says that only those with the 32 marks of a superman can be a Buddha or a Wheel-turning Monarch. He needs those literal words: "I, bhiksus, am a/the superman" or he doesn't get it, it seems.
Correct. The Buddha never in the texts says he has the 32 marks.
The Buddha also never says he has hands, feet, or a brain.

thomaslaw
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Location: Australia

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by thomaslaw » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:44 am

:jumping: :applause: :thinking:
thecowisflying wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:58 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:08 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:49 pm


He literally needs the Buddha to say "I, bhiksus, am a/the superman". He doesn't understand that the Buddha says that only those with the 32 marks of a superman can be a Buddha or a Wheel-turning Monarch. He needs those literal words: "I, bhiksus, am a/the superman" or he doesn't get it, it seems.
Correct. The Buddha never in the texts says he has the 32 marks.
The Buddha also never says he has hands, feet, or a brain.
Correct!

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Zhen Li
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Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by Zhen Li » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:31 am

When the Buddha talks about himself, he typically uses the third person, e.g. "The Tathagata is X." However, in plenty of texts, such as the Lalitavistara or Perfection of Wisdom Sutras, the Buddha discusses himself having the marks, among many other important features.

It is also not worth generalizing what is a Theravāda or Mahāyāna view. Doctrinally, there are different layers of teaching in the Mahāyāna. On one level, the Buddha has the 32 marks, on another level, the Buddha is signless. In the Theravāda Pāli texts, there are simply different strata of texts with regards to the Buddha's appearance—in regards to them, this is less of a doctrinal question and more of a philological question.

However, on the cultural level, the question as to what is accepted by modern Mahāyānists or Theravādans will yield you even different results. A great number of Theravādans are pretty protestant on such matters, and will hold that the Buddha could only have appeared like a regular human from his time and place. Many Mahāyānists would agree with that and never have heard of the three kāyas, and so forth.

So, it's important to specify whether we are asking about texts, specific or general communities of practitioners, or individual opinions and perspectives from users here on Dharma-wheel. Each will yield different answers.

thomaslaw
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Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by thomaslaw » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:22 am

:applause: :jumping:
thecowisflying wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:58 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:08 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:49 pm


He literally needs the Buddha to say "I, bhiksus, am a/the superman". He doesn't understand that the Buddha says that only those with the 32 marks of a superman can be a Buddha or a Wheel-turning Monarch. He needs those literal words: "I, bhiksus, am a/the superman" or he doesn't get it, it seems.
Correct. The Buddha never in the texts says he has the 32 marks.
The Buddha also never says he has hands, feet, or a brain.
Correct. But what is your point? Do you mean the Buddha is not a human being?

thecowisflying
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Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:35 am

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by thecowisflying » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:05 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:22 am
:applause: :jumping:
thecowisflying wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:58 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:08 am


Correct. The Buddha never in the texts says he has the 32 marks.
The Buddha also never says he has hands, feet, or a brain.
Correct. But what is your point? Do you mean the Buddha is not a human being?
Being born a human we can infer he had hands, being a Buddha we can infer he had the thirty two marks.

thecowisflying
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 12:35 am

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by thecowisflying » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:05 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:22 am
:applause: :jumping:
thecowisflying wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:58 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:08 am


Correct. The Buddha never in the texts says he has the 32 marks.
The Buddha also never says he has hands, feet, or a brain.
Correct. But what is your point? Do you mean the Buddha is not a human being?
Being born a human we can infer he had hands, being a Buddha we can infer he had the thirty two marks.

thomaslaw
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Location: Australia

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by thomaslaw » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:10 pm

thecowisflying wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:05 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:22 am
:applause: :jumping:
thecowisflying wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:58 am


The Buddha also never says he has hands, feet, or a brain.
Correct. But what is your point? Do you mean the Buddha is not a human being?
Being born a human we can infer he had hands, being a Buddha we can infer he had the thirty two marks.
Good on you 😉

thomaslaw
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:00 am
Location: Australia

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Post by thomaslaw » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:19 pm

thecowisflying wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:05 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:22 am
:applause: :jumping:
thecowisflying wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:58 am


The Buddha also never says he has hands, feet, or a brain.
Correct. But what is your point? Do you mean the Buddha is not a human being?
Being born a human we can infer he had hands, being a Buddha we can infer he had the thirty two marks.
What do you mean by 'we"?

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