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Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:26 pm
by thomaslaw
thecowisflying wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:05 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:22 am
:applause: :jumping:
thecowisflying wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:58 am


The Buddha also never says he has hands, feet, or a brain.
Correct. But what is your point? Do you mean the Buddha is not a human being?
Being born a human we can infer he had hands, being a Buddha we can infer he had the thirty two marks.
Being a Buddha it is better not to say 'we' can infer he had the32 marks without evidence.

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:45 pm
by Coëmgenu
thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:47 am
:jumping:
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:09 pm
Yes.
But the Mahayana texts do not record the Buddha says he has 32 marks.

Thomas
Actually they do, rather frequently. You can find references all over, for instance, the threefold lotus sutra.

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:47 am
by thomaslaw
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:45 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:47 am
:jumping:
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:09 pm
Yes.
But the Mahayana texts do not record the Buddha says he has 32 marks.

Thomas
Actually they do, rather frequently. You can find references all over, for instance, the threefold lotus sutra.
Are you making it up for your faith? :thumbsup:

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:19 am
by Admin_PC
thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:47 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:45 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:47 am
:jumping:

But the Mahayana texts do not record the Buddha says he has 32 marks.

Thomas
Actually they do, rather frequently. You can find references all over, for instance, the threefold lotus sutra.
Are you making it up for your faith? :thumbsup:
Not at all, and that was a pretty rude thing to say. Keep your tone in check or you will not be allowed to post here any longer.

It's in the Lotus Sutra: (BDK edition) pps 48, 49, 107, 138, 141, 144, 181, 184, 185, 209, 315
In the Larger Sukhavativyuha Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 14, 37.
In the Contemplation Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 74, 100.
In the Infinite Meanings Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 13-14
In the Sutra on All-embracing Goodness (Samantabhadra) Bodhisattva: (BDK Edition) pg 55
Tiantai commentary on the Lotus sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 137, 184, 185
The Vairocanabhisambodhi Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 31, 98, 182, 222, 256

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:26 am
by Coëmgenu
Admin_PC wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:19 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:47 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:45 pm


Actually they do, rather frequently. You can find references all over, for instance, the threefold lotus sutra.
Are you making it up for your faith? :thumbsup:
Not at all, and that was a pretty rude thing to say. Keep your tone in check or you will not be allowed to post here any longer.

It's in the Lotus Sutra: (BDK edition) pps 48, 49, 107, 138, 141, 144, 181, 184, 185, 209, 315
In the Larger Sukhavativyuha Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 14, 37.
In the Contemplation Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 74, 100.
In the Infinite Meanings Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 13-14
In the Sutra on All-embracing Goodness (Samantabhadra) Bodhisattva: (BDK Edition) pg 55
Tiantai commentary on the Lotus sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 137, 184, 185
The Vairocanabhisambodhi Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 31, 98, 182, 222, 256
He didn't believe it when its presence in the śrāvaka layer of the dispensation was laid out plainly in front of his face. Who is to say he will believe it when its presence in the bodhisattva layer of the dispensation is laid out plainly in front of his face?

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:47 am
by thomaslaw
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:26 am
Admin_PC wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:19 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:47 am

Are you making it up for your faith? :thumbsup:
Not at all, and that was a pretty rude thing to say. Keep your tone in check or you will not be allowed to post here any longer.

It's in the Lotus Sutra: (BDK edition) pps 48, 49, 107, 138, 141, 144, 181, 184, 185, 209, 315
In the Larger Sukhavativyuha Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 14, 37.
In the Contemplation Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 74, 100.
In the Infinite Meanings Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 13-14
In the Sutra on All-embracing Goodness (Samantabhadra) Bodhisattva: (BDK Edition) pg 55
Tiantai commentary on the Lotus sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 137, 184, 185
The Vairocanabhisambodhi Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 31, 98, 182, 222, 256
He didn't believe it when its presence in the śrāvaka layer of the dispensation was laid out plainly in front of his face. Who is to say he will believe it when its presence in the bodhisattva layer of the dispensation is laid out plainly in front of his face?
Note: None of the mentioned texts records the Buddha himself as saying: I have the 32 marks. :jumping:

Thomas

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:19 pm
by Admin_PC
thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:47 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:26 am
Admin_PC wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:19 am

Not at all, and that was a pretty rude thing to say. Keep your tone in check or you will not be allowed to post here any longer.

It's in the Lotus Sutra: (BDK edition) pps 48, 49, 107, 138, 141, 144, 181, 184, 185, 209, 315
In the Larger Sukhavativyuha Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 14, 37.
In the Contemplation Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 74, 100.
In the Infinite Meanings Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 13-14
In the Sutra on All-embracing Goodness (Samantabhadra) Bodhisattva: (BDK Edition) pg 55
Tiantai commentary on the Lotus sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 137, 184, 185
The Vairocanabhisambodhi Sutra: (BDK Edition) pps 31, 98, 182, 222, 256
He didn't believe it when its presence in the śrāvaka layer of the dispensation was laid out plainly in front of his face. Who is to say he will believe it when its presence in the bodhisattva layer of the dispensation is laid out plainly in front of his face?
Note: None of the mentioned texts records the Buddha himself as saying: I have the 32 marks. :jumping:

Thomas
Back again being rude and disruptive....
Nirvana Sutra wrote:Because you are also like him in the excellent way you have overturned
the notion of the Tathāgata as having the characteristics of created existences,
in the future you will most assuredly attain the thirty-two major
and eighty minor marks, as well as the eighteen distinctive characteristics
of a buddha
Nirvana Sutra wrote:Because in the *Ghoṣila-sūtra, the Buddha said to Ghoṣila:
If a deity like Māra or Brahmā wants to destroy something, he transforms
himself into an image of a buddha, replete with the thirty-two
major physical marks and eighty minor marks, emitting light
from each pore. His face will be perfectly round and luminous like
the moon, with a circle of hair between his eyebrows as white as
snow. He will face you in this guise but when you examine him,
you will see most assuredly that what you are seeing is a false reality.
After realizing this, you must defeat him
Lotus Sutra wrote:Thereupon the Bhagavat, wanting to explain the meaning of this further,
spoke these verses:

O monks!
I shall now make something known to you.
You should attentively listen
To what I have to say.
My great disciple Subhūti
Will become a buddha called Yaśasketu.
He will pay homage to innumerable
Myriads of koṭis of buddhas,
And, following the Buddha’s practice,
He will gradually come to complete the great path.
He will attain the thirty-two marks
In his last body,
And his form will be fine and beautiful
Just like a jeweled mountain.
Lotus Sutra wrote:Thereupon the Bhagavat, wanting to elaborate on the meaning of this
further, spoke these verses:

...

If you attain omniscience
And the qualities of the Buddha,
Such things as the ten powers,
And become endowed with the thirty-two marks,
Then you will have attained the ultimate goal.
Lotus Sutra wrote:The Buddha addressed the monks, saying: “The king at that time was I
myself, and the sage was he who is now Devadatta. Through the virtuous
friendship of Devadatta I was able to become endowed with the six perfections,
benevolence, compassion, sympathetic joy, generosity, the thirty-two marks,
the eighty excellent characteristics, reddish-gold skin, the ten powers, the
four kinds of fearlessness, the four methods of gaining trust, the eighteen
excellent qualities, the transcendent powers, and the power of the path. It is
all due to the good and virtuous friendship of Devadatta that I attained complete
enlightenment and extensively saved innumerable sentient beings
I think we've had enough of your trolling.

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:21 pm
by Simon E.
:applause:

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:38 pm
by Pero
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:36 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:47 am
:jumping:
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:09 pm
Yes.
But the Mahayana texts do not record the Buddha says he has 32 marks.

Thomas
Yes they do. The Abhisamayalamkara (more or less a summary of the Prajnaparamita sutras, from Maitreya/Asanga) lists the 32 major and 80 minor marks and says they pertain to the Sambhogakaya.
Ah, that makes a bit more sense than considering them physical.

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:37 pm
by Simon E.
Pero wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:38 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:36 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:47 am
:jumping:

But the Mahayana texts do not record the Buddha says he has 32 marks.

Thomas
Yes they do. The Abhisamayalamkara (more or less a summary of the Prajnaparamita sutras, from Maitreya/Asanga) lists the 32 major and 80 minor marks and says they pertain to the Sambhogakaya.
Ah, that makes a bit more sense than considering them physical.
A point that was made much earlier in the thread..more than once.
But as Grandma Ellis used to say 'there is no one deafer than those who do not want to hear' :smile:

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:38 am
by Coëmgenu
There's also the Diamond Sūtra:

Śākyamuni Buddha again called, “Empty Born, in your opinion, can it be said that the thirty-two marks and eighty subtle characteristics are the Tathāgata’s Dharma body?"

Because Subhāti understood the principle of emptiness, and because he had awakened to the emptiness of people and the emptiness of dharmas he said, “No. One should not rely on physical marks to see the Tathāgata. And why? The thirty-two marks and eighty subtle characteristics of which the Tathàgata speaks are marks of the physical body, not of the true, real Dharma body. The Tathāgata has certified to the substance of the principle, the Dharma body, so although he is endowed with physical marks, there is no attachment to them, nor can he truly be seen by means of those marks.

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:46 pm
by Pero
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:38 am
There's also the Diamond Sūtra:

Śākyamuni Buddha again called, “Empty Born, in your opinion, can it be said that the thirty-two marks and eighty subtle characteristics are the Tathāgata’s Dharma body?"

Because Subhāti understood the principle of emptiness, and because he had awakened to the emptiness of people and the emptiness of dharmas he said, “No. One should not rely on physical marks to see the Tathāgata. And why? The thirty-two marks and eighty subtle characteristics of which the Tathàgata speaks are marks of the physical body, not of the true, real Dharma body. The Tathāgata has certified to the substance of the principle, the Dharma body, so although he is endowed with physical marks, there is no attachment to them, nor can he truly be seen by means of those marks.
Uh oh.

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:04 pm
by Sentient Light
Pero wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:38 am
There's also the Diamond Sūtra:

Śākyamuni Buddha again called, “Empty Born, in your opinion, can it be said that the thirty-two marks and eighty subtle characteristics are the Tathāgata’s Dharma body?"

Because Subhāti understood the principle of emptiness, and because he had awakened to the emptiness of people and the emptiness of dharmas he said, “No. One should not rely on physical marks to see the Tathāgata. And why? The thirty-two marks and eighty subtle characteristics of which the Tathàgata speaks are marks of the physical body, not of the true, real Dharma body. The Tathāgata has certified to the substance of the principle, the Dharma body, so although he is endowed with physical marks, there is no attachment to them, nor can he truly be seen by means of those marks.
Uh oh.
It's probably a translation of "form," so it's not really a contradiction (would need to see the Sanskrit though). Typically, nirmanakaya is translated as 'manifestation body', because it manifests in the Desire Realm. The sambhogakaya is considered a body of "limitless form", and is accessible in deep meditative states, and correlates to highest heavens of the Form Realm.

Re: 32 marks of the Buddha

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:20 pm
by Coëmgenu
Sentient Light wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:04 pm
Pero wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:38 am
There's also the Diamond Sūtra:

Śākyamuni Buddha again called, “Empty Born, in your opinion, can it be said that the thirty-two marks and eighty subtle characteristics are the Tathāgata’s Dharma body?"

Because Subhāti understood the principle of emptiness, and because he had awakened to the emptiness of people and the emptiness of dharmas he said, “No. One should not rely on physical marks to see the Tathāgata. And why? The thirty-two marks and eighty subtle characteristics of which the Tathàgata speaks are marks of the physical body, not of the true, real Dharma body. The Tathāgata has certified to the substance of the principle, the Dharma body, so although he is endowed with physical marks, there is no attachment to them, nor can he truly be seen by means of those marks.
Uh oh.
It's probably a translation of "form," so it's not really a contradiction (would need to see the Sanskrit though). Typically, nirmanakaya is translated as 'manifestation body', because it manifests in the Desire Realm. The sambhogakaya is considered a body of "limitless form", and is accessible in deep meditative states, and correlates to highest heavens of the Form Realm.
Before the trikāya gets standardized, the saṃbhogakāya gets called all sorts of things and seems to have to be inferred inasmuch as it is a discrete body/class-of-body. For instance I can think of some times in some Mahāyāna literature where dharmakāya is described and it is clear that it is actually saṃbhogakāya being described (I am thinking of the opening of the Anantanirdeśasūtra, which describes the dharmakāya as a 16-foot shining purple body with 32 marks, etc., dharmakāya does not have appearance, so we, or at least I, construe that this is actually saṃbhogakāya).

It is technically a form body though afaik.