"Believe nothing unless..." quote

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weitsicht
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by weitsicht » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:38 am

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:31 am
So, weitsicht How are you doing? Is the debate useful to you?
you guys are living in different time zones. Thanks for the valuable replies & clarifications to all of you.

To make one Thing clear: I sought proper understanding, not the best Translation. Whatever the Buddha said, it wasn't in English anyways and the way he expressed himself was dependent on the language he used anyways. Needless to say that the words were jotted down from memories only. I am sure you know discussions like that.
Understanding is beyond language anyways, and Kim O, Johnny D, PuerAzaelis, you kindly helped me in that sense. :anjali:
Kim O'Hara wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:36 pm
As one translator puts it, "One's own preferences are not to be followed simply because they seem logical or resonate with one's feelings. Instead, any view or belief must be tested by the results it yields when put into practice; and — to guard against the possibility of any bias or limitations in one's understanding of those results — they must further be checked against the experience of people who are wise."
Indeed the whole sense of my original quotation was then turned upside down -through altering the order.

There's a paradox embedded because the Person I am now is a result of any yield put into practise and any Memory of the self previous to this undertaking became a copy of what lies already in the past.

Finding yet another paradox in the Dharma is not of much surprise to me.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:40 pm
Its from the Kalama Sutta, but usually gets decontextualized and used to advocate a form of skepticism which is unhealthy Dharma - wise.

Lots of ' Western' Buddhism goes like that, you can take a quote, then marry to a philosophy it does not come from, and it becomes something else.
true, very true
but yet, finding myself in this 21st century, I have difficulties reading and making sense of suttas translated from originals. [and I guess I am not the only one] Hence I thank any Interpreter who helps me building the Bridge.

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weitsicht
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by weitsicht » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:42 am

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:11 am
Bump.
Bump what?

Hmm... I see user dzogchungpa quoted my Topic start in a Forum I have no Access to. :shrug:

Simon E.
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by Simon E. » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:01 pm

I was wondering whether the discussion has answered the question you posted in your OP?
I see from your reply above that it is still ongoing... Which not surprising. As you say, these are complex issues. :smile:

btw 'bump' is simply away of drawing attention to a point that may or may not have been missed.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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seeker242
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by seeker242 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:33 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:21 pm
"it's a bad translation that contradicts the message of the sutta in the sense that reason and common sense are not sufficient for ascertaining the truth"
I would not say it's a "bad translation" but an very inaccurate paraphrasing of the translation of the Kalama Sutta. No actual translator would put it like that. The reason why is because things based on "own own reasoning and common sense" could very easily be based on upon "an axiom; upon specious reasoning; upon a bias toward a notion that has been pondered over", all of which he advises not to follow.

If your reasoning is specious, then you should not rely on it! If you did, you will be doing the exact opposite of what is actually advised. But if your reasoning is specious, then how do you know your reasoning is specious? You generally don't. If you did know it was, then you would not be engaging in it to begin with.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by PuerAzaelis » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:06 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:34 am
Snap!

:smile:
Kim
lol whoa I should read the whole thread next time
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

Simon E.
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by Simon E. » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:52 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:33 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:21 pm
"it's a bad translation that contradicts the message of the sutta in the sense that reason and common sense are not sufficient for ascertaining the truth"
I would not say it's a "bad translation" but an very inaccurate paraphrasing of the translation of the Kalama Sutta. No actual translator would put it like that. The reason why is because things based on "own own reasoning and common sense" could very easily be based on upon "an axiom; upon specious reasoning; upon a bias toward a notion that has been pondered over", all of which he advises not to follow.

If your reasoning is specious, then you should not rely on it! If you did, you will be doing the exact opposite of what is actually advised. But if your reasoning is specious, then how do you know your reasoning is specious? You generally don't. If you did know it was, then you would not be engaging in it to begin with.
:good:

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche 'What we don't want to see is that when we look at the world with an afflicted view we are no different from someone who is completely crazy'
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Malcolm
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:20 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:40 am

But you're right, upon revisiting it I realize it is not what I read, even in a bad translation.. I concede there is no way it could be an actual quote.
Thank you.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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dzogchungpa
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:56 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:42 am
Hmm... I see user dzogchungpa quoted my Topic start in a Forum I have no Access to. :shrug:


There's a special forum for wayward posts. It seems that many of mine wind up there. :cry:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Jeff H
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by Jeff H » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:20 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:40 am

But you're right, upon revisiting it I realize it is not what I read, even in a bad translation.. I concede there is no way it could be an actual quote.
Thank you.
But, Malcolm, can’t erudition sometimes obscure understanding? It seemed like the OP was seeking clarity about what it means for Dharma practice if Buddha had said it, and what Buddha actually meant if he didn’t say it as some have interpreted it. Simply stating the literal truth that it’s a fake citation doesn’t address that.

I received this lesson as a metaphor, not a citation: It is as if Buddha was a theoretical scientist who published his hypothesis and each of us must replicate his work for ourselves in order to obtain his results. With that understanding, it’s clear to me that what Anna heard is a misinterpretation and what others have quoted from suttas here is correct. But to simply tell her it’s wrong doesn’t seem helpful to me.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Malcolm
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:13 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:04 pm
But to simply tell her it’s wrong doesn’t seem helpful to me.

It affords her the understanding that she must be more careful in accepting quotes from unvetted sources. What can be more helpful than that?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Jeff H
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by Jeff H » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:13 pm
Jeff H wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:04 pm
But to simply tell her it’s wrong doesn’t seem helpful to me.

It affords her the understanding that she must be more careful in accepting quotes from unvetted sources.
Quite true. "That's not the way."
Malcolm wrote:What can be more helpful than that?
Adding direction. "Here is the way." (As you've done for me several times.)
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Malcolm
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:31 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:13 pm
Jeff H wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:04 pm
But to simply tell her it’s wrong doesn’t seem helpful to me.

It affords her the understanding that she must be more careful in accepting quotes from unvetted sources.
Quite true. "That's not the way."
Malcolm wrote:What can be more helpful than that?
Adding direction. "Here is the way." (As you've done for me several times.)
Well, it is a group effort here, I am not the only one who can do some heavy lifting.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Jeff H
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Location: Vermont, USA

Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by Jeff H » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:01 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:31 pm
Jeff H wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:13 pm



It affords her the understanding that she must be more careful in accepting quotes from unvetted sources.
Quite true. "That's not the way."
Malcolm wrote:What can be more helpful than that?
Adding direction. "Here is the way." (As you've done for me several times.)
Well, it is a group effort here, I am not the only one who can do some heavy lifting.
Fair enough. :applause:
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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weitsicht
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by weitsicht » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:47 pm

honestly, I am happy to having had more replies to my post than Malcom's
Meaning that Jeff's notion of adding direction helps more.
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:13 pm
It affords her the understanding that she must be more careful in accepting quotes from unvetted sources. What can be more helpful than that?
If I would have accepted the quote I wouldn't have posted the question the way it was posted i.e. my doubt was included, I sought direction
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:56 pm
There's a special forum for wayward posts. It seems that many of mine wind up there. :cry:
wayward posts then :popcorn:
nice signature btw :twothumbsup: , just read over this one whilst commuting this morning
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by Punya » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:22 pm

Weitsicht said:

nice signature btw :twothumbsup: , just read over this one whilst commuting this morning.
I was thinking about this the other day. The context of the quote is that DJKR was not talking about himself. He always says he is not brave enough. Nevertheless, I guess it's up to each of us to decide if we think the cap fits in the case of our own teachers.
Last edited by Punya on Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
May the stupid meditators be awakened from the sleep of ignorance;
May the attacks of the logicians with their sophistries be vanquished.

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche in The Rain of Wisdom

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Malcolm
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:24 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:47 pm
honestly, I am happy to having had more replies to my post than Malcom's
I never actually replied to the post you made.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

emaho
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by emaho » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:24 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:47 pm
honestly, I am happy to having had more replies to my post than Malcom's
I never actually replied to the post you made.
Wow. Malcolm, you've really become much more affable than in eSangha days, but this post really reminds me of the good old time when there was a thread "How to cope with Malcolm" :roll:
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

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Malcolm
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:42 pm

emaho wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:24 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:47 pm
honestly, I am happy to having had more replies to my post than Malcom's
I never actually replied to the post you made.
Wow. Malcolm, you've really become much more affable than in eSangha days, but this post really reminds me of the good old time when there was a thread "How to cope with Malcolm" :roll:
The real question is, why do I cope with the rest of you?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Virgo
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by Virgo » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:00 pm

emaho wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:24 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:47 pm
honestly, I am happy to having had more replies to my post than Malcom's
I never actually replied to the post you made.
Wow. Malcolm, you've really become much more affable than in eSangha days, but this post really reminds me of the good old time when there was a thread "How to cope with Malcolm" :roll:
Emaho, I think you read something into the post that wasn't there. Malcolm was simply stating a fact, in a matter of fact way. There should be no issue with that at all. Where I am from, people talk like that all the time...

I was going to erase your post, but I am going to leave it just to make that point. Please refrain from ad-hom attacks. There is no place for that here.

Thank you,
Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxPcu7F7gWg

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weitsicht
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Re: "Believe nothing unless..." quote

Post by weitsicht » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:42 pm
emaho wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:24 pm


I never actually replied to the post you made.
Wow. Malcolm, you've really become much more affable than in eSangha days, but this post really reminds me of the good old time when there was a thread "How to cope with Malcolm" :roll:
The real question is, why do I cope with the rest of you?
You guys amuse me. Please go ahead.
Punya wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:22 pm
Weitsicht said:

nice signature btw :twothumbsup: , just read over this one whilst commuting this morning.
I was thinking about this the other day. The context of the quote is that DJKR was not talking about himself. He always says he is not brave enough. Nevertheless, I guess it's up to each of us to decide if we think the cap fits in the case of our own teachers.
It is from The Guru drinks Bourbon, so yes, he speaks generally. He makes some admiring references on Chögyam Trungpa and how he converted Hippies from the sixties into marching, camouflaged ppl for the search Crazy Wisdom's Spirituality
pls read here https://books.google.de/books?id=LS0tDQ ... n.&f=false
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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